Queen Victoria and John Brown

[nahthatsnotforme]

Several news articles lately and a new Channel 4 documentary on Thursday presented by Rob Rinder suggesting they had a child.

I can believe they were in a relationship; she was a young woman when widowed but a child seems a
little far fetched.

Will give it a watch though.

I think you're right, @DuchessofReality . However, I think she had a close personal relationship with John Brown, following the death of Albert. She enjoyed her Highland outings with him and he had significant privileges. She was perhaps lonely, and going to a wee bothy with John was a little bit of an escape.

Yes - lots of papers were destroyed including letters and diaries. I love a royal mystery!

I’d quite like this to be true from a human POV. It’s hard & lonely to be widowed at such a young age.

@KatyaKananiI agree, but I think there is a world of difference between ‘allowing him to address her rather informally and enjoying allowing him to help her into a carriage’ and ‘having a sexual relationship’. We have her doctors evidence that she was buried with his photo, which I believe, but I think it is way to much of a stretch to turn that into a relationship or a secret marriage.

I have believed for some time that they had a morgantic marriage. I'm less convinced Victoria had a child by him, but I do think believe they married in secret.

There is a rumour in aristocratic circles that the Queen Mother found their marriage certificate and burned it.

Maybe I wasn't clear. I'm in agreement with you. I think she had a close personal friendship. However, I think that's probably all it was. There's evidence of disapproval from some people about it, but I suspect that it was because he was a servant. There was probably jealousy.
With Edward and Beatrice I suspect an element of protecting her reputation.

I am wondering whether there was a legal requirement to have a record if the marriage took place. I wouldn’t be at all surprised if she married him. A child is a bit of a stretch though, but who knows? Plenty of Kings had mistresses and illegitimate children. Why should a Queen be any different?

I’d love to know. The chaplain’s confession is very tantalising.

Queen V was prepared to go out on a limb about all kinds of things. She stuck out against racism at court, defending her Munshi, Abdul Karim, and I think she made a personal donation to help the Irish famine when she thought the government weren’t doing enough.

i don’t think she could have been open about a marriage to JB, but I wouldn’t put it past her to have secretly married him.

I hope it’s true. I hope she did find some happiness having been widowed suddenly.

She also may not have been a hypochondriac. She had none kids and medicine back them was still in it's infancy. It may have taken her more and more time to bounce back after each pregnancy.

Yes no wonder she didn’t enjoy pregnancy. Who would having to have all those children close together. No pain relief except chloroform which was used during at least one of her later pregnancies.

When you consider the risks inherent in pregnancy and childbirth back then, she must have had one hell of a constitution to have 9 children! Poor Queen Anne had 17 pregnancies and no surviving children.

(I know it’s often said that pregnancy isn’t a disease, but I would have been dead both times (if you know what I mean!) with my two if not for medical intervention).

There are a few things here which make me think it could be true ; Edward & Beatrice destroying diaries and paperwork after Victoria died , the deathbed confession of the Vicar who supposedly married them , the significance of the rings worn by both Victoria and JB and lastly the complete strangeness of how suddenly JB’s childless brother and his wife acquired a baby and had to move to Australia 🤨
Also the photo I’ve seen of the supposed descendant she clearly has Victoria’s nose 🤣

Those with better understanding, would it have been a constitutional issue if it was discovered (at the time) that they were married.

Sure people would have been surprised but I’m wondering more on the historical side. Any children would have been legitimate if they were married.

I’m not sure…the marriage would surely just have been problematic from a class perspective. Even Albert wouldn’t have had the right to overrule his wife, the Queen. Is this correct? As pps have said, he did find ways to influence policy but luckily, in a benign way.

I’m feeling more convinced by the marriage theory but find the illegitimate birth hard to believe. Victoria is said to have worn JB’s mother’s wedding ring in her coffin.

The 'deathbed confession' of the marriage appears to recorded at at least third hand so I wouldn't set that much store on it.

I don't believe in the secret baby at all.

Supposedly, Could it be that Mary Ann, whose birth was registered soon after Hugh and Jessie’s arrival in New Zealand in 1865, was actually Victoria and John’s child, sent to the furthest reach of the empire in secret?

The Palace has battled to cover it up for decades. But here's the overwhelming evidence Queen Victoria DID take ghillie John Brown as her lover - and they had a child who was spirited away to New Zealand | Daily Mail Online

Lots of people have family stories of connections which turn out to be false.

Victoria's uncles had literally dozens of illegitimate children. Mary Anne could have gotten the nose from one of them.

Or her own older sons...

I wouldn't be surpised if there was a relationship even a secret marriage - less convinced about a child as her labours were really hard and her age would be against her and so many people would have had to be involved in that cover up.

However one of the documentaries I saw focused more on her kids and her relationship with them and that covered a rumour at time that one of her daughters Princess Louise may have had an illegitimate child by her brother's tutor. Also one of George III unmarried daughter more likely had an illegitimate child.

So while Royal women having illegitimate kids was a huge problem it's possible they did have to deal with it at some points just think Victoria in her last fertile years seems really unlikely.

It wouldn’t have been a constituional issue as Victoria already had nine legitimate children to serve as her heirs. And she would have needed the soveriegn’s consent to marry - in other words, her own! Parliament would presumably expect to have been consulted, but given the line of succession was secure, I can’t imagine they could have done anything about it. Forced her to abdicate if they cared enough, maybe?)

(For an interesting parallel, King Leopold III of Belgium did marry someone considered unsuitable after his hugely popular first wife Queen Astrid died in a car accident in the 1930s. He faced great opposition for having a politican’s daughter as his mistress while being held under house arrest as a prisoner of war in Belgium, and for hastily marrying her in a slightly fudged secret ceremony when she fell pregnant) He ultimately was forced to abdicate, but his second wife was only part of the reason why the government disliked him - he was alleged to have acted unconstitutionally during WWII).

It’s certainly intriguing.

i agree with pps that the very thought of a pregnancy at 46 after 9 difficult labours and a prolapsed uterus (not to mention disliking babies and the certainty of scandal) doesn’t sound an inviting prospect!😲😱

It is well documented that though Queen Victoria loved her sex life with dear Albert she did not love babies. I don't think she was maternal at all and just kept giving birth as no contraception back then other than condoms which Albert obviously didn't use or not enough 🙄

Feeding and clothing such a large brood posed no issues as monarch due to the fact she didn't need to lose a moment's sleep or change a nappy. Servants galore and wet nurses round the clock.

As for a secret child with JB who knows for sure? It would make a good movie. 😃🍼

I think she likely did trust John Brown and if an illegitimate baby was adopted by his brother and SIL there's a chance it could be a royal baby, but not QV's imo.

Beatrice was 4.5 when Albert died, the largest amount of time Victoria had gone without being pregnant since she got married. The increasing gaps between her and Albert's children suggests she didn't fall pregnant as easily later on, which ties in with the issues with her uterus.

@MonickerMonica
"no contraception back then other than condoms which Albert obviously didn't use or not enough 🙄"
Didn't Albert allegedly have a piercing in a place that would have...ehem....caused damage to condoms 🤔

I think that’s just a story.

Happy to be corrected though!