Harry v NGN 2

[mainecooncatonahottinroof]

I don't think we're done talking - and I never start threads!

As you were!

Would President Johnson or President Farage in the UK?

And how do we feel about having a system in place where anyone elected to the office of Prime Minister spends their time (covertly) campaigning for the office of President instead of making unpopular, but necessary, moves for the good of the country?

People always use the President Johnson or Farage argument when you could just as easily have President David Attenborough, President Mary Beard, Presidebt Tim Peake.

The system has worked well for Ireland!

I'm not arguing against a change of system, just joining in with naming all the factors.

I think Ireland (through its history) has a more politically educated population than England (deliberate exclusion of Wales and Scotland here).

What I meant was that our current political system is failing and needs an overhaul.

We have too much hands in the power of the Prime Minister and the Commons and we need a more effective and democratically elected second chamber to carry out its work.

The current political parties are hiding behind the conventions of monarchy to stop any reform because it’s not in their interests when it should be in our interests!

The monarchy can be gradually reformed and revised in to a token formalistic presence for tourists if you want.

But the main point is that we need to change the way we govern ourselves to be more efficient, reflective, and democratically accountable, and the monarchy currently is an obstacle to that process.

Someone mentioned above that it’s a problem if your PM is constantly, covertly, trying to campaign to become President and yet it seems to worry no one that we have an entire second chamber (the House of Lords) that is stuffed full of political appointments when it should be elected by us!

Do those of you who favour an elected HoS not worry about the electorate? MPs always bang on about trusting the voting public but actually a lot of them are just plain idiots. I shudder to think who we might have representing us, because it would be down to who could spin their image most convincingly.

And unfortunately, to pick up an earlier point, it tends not to be the excellent Attenboroughs, Beards and Peakes who seek high office but the Putins and the Trumps and the Johnsons.

And PR.

Proper PR, so that we no longer have mediocre/charismatic PMs who are proclaimed after a "landslide" victory in which their party only won 40% (or less) of the votes.

The German system (newly minted after WW2) provides an excellent model.

Why would we want or need a celebrity president? Is their office in your republic ceremonial or political? If it's the latter, you should not be endorsing celebrities with no political/governmental experience.

it tends not to be the excellent Attenboroughs, Beards and Peakes who seek high office but the Putins and the Trumps and the Johnsons.

'Only those who do not seek power are qualified to hold it* Plato - an issue as old as time.

Not true. Traditionally successful lawyers used to seek government office.
The type who want to be dictators like Putin and Trump also seek office though.
The fault is with the voters.

Traditionally successful lawyers Like David Sherborne?

Yeah, I would definitely put lawyers in the camp of not qualified to hold it.

Generally successful lawyers want to be judges, in my experience.

It depends on the criteria - do the public choose the candidate? From a shortlist? Knowing the UK public we'd probably end up with PresidentyMcPresidentface or President Joe Wicks. We could end up with David Attenborough or one of the Mary's, but I think they're all too intelligent to want the gig. Anyway, David Attenborough and Mary Beard may not be neutral enough presidential material.

You say people always use Farage and Johnson as examples. These examples have actually already been voted into office, so it's not beyond the realms.

There's a quote somewhere, which has quite escaped me for the moment, something along the lines of it taking two idiots to outvote an intelligent person? I don't have a lot of faith in the electorate, going on past experience!

At least with the RF, there's a constancy?

May I recommend the latest episode of the BBC podcast When It Hits the Fan which covers this case and the result.

Absolutely fascinating and worth listening to the end. At the start it's hard to know where they are going with what they are saying. It's very even handed and don't be put off by the fact one of them used to edit The Sun. In fact I think he is a great source on the whole affair (and I'm pretty sure is casting subtle non slanderous shade on Rebekah Brooks).

@MrsLeonFarrell
Thanks for the recommendation, I will look out for it 👍

I listen to that podcast every week @MrsLeonFarrell
definite shade at Rebekah Brooks!

I meant to put in a link

www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m0027cmb?partner=uk.co.bbc&origin=share-mobile

I'm glad it wasn't just me that thought there was shade. I'd love to know what he really thinks she did!

I really enjoyed the podcast and will be listening to others by them as I am fascinated by PR.

The Rebekeh Brooks shade was real. It's also clear that Dave Yelland really feels for Harry and William as his son lost his mother too. The Sun is a terrible paper and it does sound like a toxic environment reading between the lines.

I was interested in the deal that was brokered giving Harry and William privacy while at school. It does show that we have come a long way, although we still have a way to go.

When It Hits The Fan is such a fascinating podcast! I listen to it too.

The Rest Is Entertainment also gives you fascinating glimpses behind the scenes.

There are other podcasts in the series where it’s clear he has a lot of sympathy for them both. They are very interesting and do give an insight to the that world.

I'm sure he isn't perfect and some dodgy things did occur under his editorship whether he admits it or not. It would be interesting to see the timeline between Dave being at the Sun and what Harry/William things were written.

I want to believe him when he says he didn't know what phone hacking was, but I did slightly side eye that bit.

Absolutely love The Rest is Entertainment. Marina and Richard have such good chemistry and their experience/knowledge is very impressive. I'm sure they will do Harry's NGN settlement on their show.

Yes, there were some sections where I too was dubious. I simply don’t believe you can do that job and have a strong moral compass, so there are likely to be have been several things he was aware of, or turned a blind eye to, on the basis that they got the story they wanted.