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The royal family

Part 2: The Press & The Royals a discussion

1000 replies

Whaeanui · 27/04/2023 14:52

Following on from this thread: Part 1 https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/the_royal_family/4786923-the-press-the-royals-a-discussion?page=1

As we know, the press often manufacture stories to create divisions between the women in the family, more often than the men. They have also hacked private communications, with cases ongoing. The public seem to feed off this and none of the family get treated very well except the monarch-although not always.

For discussion: do we think it is possible for the royal family to stay relevant and in the publics mind without their unhealthy relationship with the media, and how can they achieve that? How will previous and current legal proceedings alter the relationship?
Please do not intentionally derail this thread by discussing your personal dislike of particular family members or if they deserve it. I would really like to continue this discussion on how the royal family and the press interact, as above.

The Press & The Royals: a discussion | Mumsnet

As we were just having a great discussion on this topic I’m going to try again to continue it on a thread of its own. A previous thread highlighted tw...

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/the_royal_family/4786923-the-press-the-royals-a-discussion?page=1

OP posts:
Thread gallery
69
Whaeanui · 27/04/2023 21:05

*In January 2021, Markle sought “summary judgment” that Associated had breached her copyright and privacy. This meant that her lawyers asked a judge to find in her favour without a trial, on the grounds that Associated had not offered any adequate defence. Associated’s case was that a) what it had published was in the public interest; b) the Duchess had always intended the letter to be made public; and c) it had been co-written by Jason Knauf of the Kensington Palace communications team, so the copyright did not reside solely with her. It also argued that if a full trial was held, fresh evidence was likely to emerge that would vindicate its claims.

On February 11 last year, Lord Justice Warby concluded that Markle was entitled to summary judgment on the claim for misuse of private information and on the key aspects of the claim for copyright infringement, although in the latter case some minor issues relating to Knauf remained to be tried. In his view, Associated had no real prospect of successfully defending the misuse of private information claim, and there was no compelling reason for a trial of that claim. “The letter was a communication between family members with a single addressee. Precautions were taken to ensure that it was delivered only to him. It was, in short, a personal and private letter. The claimant had a reasonable expectation that the contents of the letter would remain private. The articles interfered with that reasonable expectation.” Warby also found that the publication of the letter infringed Markle’s copyright, and that the matter of Knauf ‘s involvement, “whatever it proves to have been”, was of only “minor significance in the overall context”. As the Mail titles and other friendly newspapers had represented the Knauf business as all but destroying Markle’s case, it is worth noting what Warby had to say about it:*

The defendant’s factual and legal case on this issue both seem to me to occupy the shadowland between improbability and unreality. The case is contingent, inferential and imprecise. It cannot be described as convincing, and seems improbable. It lacks any direct evidence to support it, and it is far from clear that any such evidence will become available. It is not possible to envisage a Court concluding that Mr Knauf’s contribution to the work as a whole was more than modest. The suggestion that his contribution generated a separate copyright, as opposed to a joint one, is, in my judgment, at the very outer margins of what is realistic.

  • Markle was seeking an “account of profits” as a remedy for the copyright infringement, a sum equivalent to the profits the paper made by breaching her copyright. After Warby had granted summary judgment, she made clear that, to save time and cost debating the issue any further in court, she would accept nominal damages in relation to the misuse of her private information. Associated immediately claimed that this meant the Duchess was effectively abandoning all her claims to compensation. Warby would have none of this, stating:

I accept the explanation provided on the claimant’s behalf: that she is seeking to adopt a sensible and proportionate approach to the next stages of this case. The defendant’s submission on this point does not seem to me to belong to the real world of this litigation.*

Associated produced new evidence from Knauf alleging that Markle was aware at the time the letter was written that her father might make it public and that there was at least indirect contact between her and the authors of a book, Finding Freedom, which discussed the letter. This proved, Associated argued, that the letter was never really private and that Markle herself was complicit in making its contents public.
On the day the appeal hearings began, the coverage in the Mail and its allies was dominated by just one thing: Markle had apologised to the court after having to revise her story about a briefing given on her behalf to the authors of Finding Freedom. The papers crowed that Meghan had been caught lying – indeed, she might even be charged with perjury. However, in the actual appeal, the matter of the apology scarcely figured at all, and Sir Geoffrey Vos stressed that he did not consider relevant to the appeal any of the allegations about Markle’s dealings with others over the letter. Indeed, it played only a minor role in Associated’s case in court, even though it dominated coverage of the appeal in its newspapers and those of its allies.
Associated’s case was unanimously rejected and the court found that Warby had been entirely correct in his summary judgment. As Sir Geoffrey Vos concluded: “Despite prompting from the bench, Associated Newspapers has not, even after a two-and-a-half-day hearing, clearly identified the triable issues that falsify this reasoning.” In other words, Associated’s legal team had brought nothing new and substantive to the Appeal Court.

https://bylineinvestigates.com/2022/03/14/the-truth-about-meghan-markle/

The truth about Meghan Markle – Byline Investigates

https://bylineinvestigates.com/2022/03/14/the-truth-about-meghan-markle

OP posts:
Dolma · 27/04/2023 21:16

There's quite a nice irony in the fact that your post about Meghan's successful copyright infringement claim for the wholesale copying of her letter is, itself, infringing the copyright of that article's author by wholesale copying of it.

Anyway, Associated were running a weak case on all fronts with this copyright claim. The best part was their submission that it isn't possible for a written account of facts to attract copyright protection (quite the thing for a newspaper to say with a straight face). But Jason's witness statement was about the misuse of private information claim, nothing to do with the copyright claim.

PicturesOfDogs · 27/04/2023 21:21

Here’s the relevant part of the judgement.

and full judgement here for anyone interested.

(I quite like reading court judgements, even if I don’t understand a lot of them)

https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/07/Sussex-v-Associated-News-judgment-021221.pdf

Part 2: The Press & The Royals a discussion
PicturesOfDogs · 27/04/2023 21:23

Oh, it’s come out a bit blurry for some reason.

It’s page 21-22 of the judgement

Iwasafool · 27/04/2023 21:33

PicturesOfDogs · 27/04/2023 21:23

Oh, it’s come out a bit blurry for some reason.

It’s page 21-22 of the judgement

I'm so glad you said that, my eyes are deteriorating but by new glassess are only 6 months old and when I looked at that I thought things were worse than I realised. I can breathe again.

Whaeanui · 27/04/2023 21:41

Thanks @PicturesOfDogs I can still read it

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Whaeanui · 27/04/2023 21:47

i]t does not matter how the quotations got into the Book. All that matters is the timing and extent of publication, which was plainly not enough to defeat the claimant’s rights against the defendant ...”. The Book was published long after the Articles. The contents of the Letter were not in the public domain at the time the Articles were published.

From the judgement posted, this is why her legal team say it wasn’t relevant to the case I guess.

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Whaeanui · 27/04/2023 21:49

It goes on… pg 22 other relevant part,
There is, however, one point that should be mentioned. One aspect of the new evidence was an acknowledgment by the claimant that her pleaded case had been inaccurate. A pleading served for the claimant on 17 November 2018 said that “the [claimant] does not know if, and to what extent, the Communications Team were involved in providing information for the Book, but the Communications Team did not otherwise contact the [claimant] for clarification of any matters relating to the Book, save in respect of the request for a photograph ... which the [claimant] declined”. After service of Mr Knauf’s evidence, disclosing that he had provided some information to the Authors of the Book with her knowledge, the Duchess said in a witness statement that, when she had approved the pleading, she had not had the benefit of seeing the relevant emails, and apologised to the court for the fact that she had not remembered the relevant exchanges at the time. This was, at best, an unfortunate lapse of memory on her part, but it does not seem to me to bear on the issues raised in the grounds of appeal, and it has been given no prominence in Associated Newspapers’ oral argument.

OP posts:
Dolma · 27/04/2023 21:58

"This was, at best, an unfortunate lapse of memory on her part" is judicial speak for "lying liars lying".

Whaeanui · 27/04/2023 22:07

@Serenster One plank of ANL’s defence was that Meghan had voluntarily put private information into the public domain via Finding Freedom, and that this undermined her claim that she had an expectation that her letter should be kept private
The articles appeared before the book according to the judgement.

OP posts:
PicturesOfDogs · 27/04/2023 22:07

Dolma · 27/04/2023 21:58

"This was, at best, an unfortunate lapse of memory on her part" is judicial speak for "lying liars lying".

I’d love a ‘judicial speak’ dictionary/crib sheet.

I remember another case (can’t remember what is was) where the judgement had stated something as ‘surprising’ which apparently meant ‘bat shit crazy’ in judge talk.

Toomanycaketins · 27/04/2023 22:12

Placemarking

Serenster · 27/04/2023 22:17

The articles appeared before the book according to the judgement.

Yes. That wasn’t relevant to the defence ANL was running, though.

And yes, Dolma, the “at best” from the Court of Appeal judge is the kicker.

Serenster · 27/04/2023 22:28

I’d love a ‘judicial speak’ dictionary/crib sheet.

Put it this way: you never want to hear a judge describe your bundles (or anything else!) as “unsatisfactory” 🤣

4plusthehound · 28/04/2023 04:26

@user1477255159 and @Whaeanui -ket's get back to the ortiginal chat of the thread.it was so interesting. The MM and Finding Freedom etc has been done to death.

Interesting how Murdoch always has a good public scalp to give us. Like Brokes for example. but the real actors, the men in suits who sign off on things keep going on and on and on.

Tony Blair does NOT come out well in this.

The palace does not come out well.

Puzzledandpissedoff · 28/04/2023 08:49

I don’t think he’d do well under cross examination
We saw how he was at ease etc, and then how combative he became in the TB interview, when asked about calling RF ‘racist’. I wonder how he’d cope with a curve ball from a solicitor that he hadn’t prepped for

It's that last sentence that's interested me all along, PicturesOfDogs, and why I really can't imagine Harry entering the witness box - and that's without any RF interference for fear of what he might say
Of course I could be wrong, and after extensive prepping he might make a masterly job of it, but as you say on past form I'm simply not seeing it

Excellent threads though, and so good to have folk here who can point us to the legal facts ...

MrsFinkelstein · 28/04/2023 08:57

This was, at best, an unfortunate lapse of memory on her part

Judge speak for "I know you're lying, lucky for you this hasn't gone to court".

It's the "at best" part that always gets me.

Whaeanui · 28/04/2023 09:16

4plusthehound · 28/04/2023 04:26

@user1477255159 and @Whaeanui -ket's get back to the ortiginal chat of the thread.it was so interesting. The MM and Finding Freedom etc has been done to death.

Interesting how Murdoch always has a good public scalp to give us. Like Brokes for example. but the real actors, the men in suits who sign off on things keep going on and on and on.

Tony Blair does NOT come out well in this.

The palace does not come out well.

Thanks, unfortunately both threads have had derails but trying not to get sucked into them too long! The focus is intended to be on the press, and the relationship between it and the royal family. Which I don’t see getting better anytime soon.

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poppysockies · 28/04/2023 09:34

While you still have a couple of members of the family (Andrew and Harry) behaving like guests on the Jerry Springer show, the media will continue to focus on them.

Harry has an absolute cheek complaining about his privacy given the way he has behaved and the way he continues to breach the privacy of others.

He has zero credibility

poppysockies · 28/04/2023 09:37

Thanks, unfortunately both threads have had derails but trying not to get sucked into them too long! The focus is intended to be on the press, and the relationship between it and the royal family. Which I don’t see getting better anytime soon.

Strikes me that what you are interested in is a isn’t the press awful/ isn’t Harry a victim echo chamber.

Reality is that Harry & Meghan court the press, spread rumours, leak gossip, and call Backgrid paps to photograph them on a regular basis - that is the flip side. It’s a symbiotic relationship

Whaeanui · 28/04/2023 09:43

poppysockies · 28/04/2023 09:37

Thanks, unfortunately both threads have had derails but trying not to get sucked into them too long! The focus is intended to be on the press, and the relationship between it and the royal family. Which I don’t see getting better anytime soon.

Strikes me that what you are interested in is a isn’t the press awful/ isn’t Harry a victim echo chamber.

Reality is that Harry & Meghan court the press, spread rumours, leak gossip, and call Backgrid paps to photograph them on a regular basis - that is the flip side. It’s a symbiotic relationship

What I want is to discuss what my thread OP outlined both in Part 1 & 2. I’ve made that clear. Not wanting to get into more nasty pointless conversations about Meghan & Harry with posters who do it across every thread is not an ‘echo chamber’. I simply what a thread that focuses on the topic. Feel free not to engage. Constant derailing is not in the spirit of the site.

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poppysockies · 28/04/2023 09:44

Thanks for proving my point! 😉

StormzyinaTCup · 28/04/2023 09:59

Excellent threads though, and so good to have folk here who can point us to the legal facts ...

Delurking to agree and give a specific shout out of thanks to the posters contributing from a legal aspect, this is what I’m finding particularly interesting.

skullbabe · 28/04/2023 10:34

poppysockies · 28/04/2023 09:34

While you still have a couple of members of the family (Andrew and Harry) behaving like guests on the Jerry Springer show, the media will continue to focus on them.

Harry has an absolute cheek complaining about his privacy given the way he has behaved and the way he continues to breach the privacy of others.

He has zero credibility

Ok taking your point that he has zero credibility- should the case with Associated Newspapers be thrown out? And News International too? What would be the best outcome for you?

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