Page 5 | Heir and Spare

Nard75 · 2022-09-19T08:56:31+00:00

Looking to the future and all the problems that have happened with Harry being the spare and being treated differently to his older brother. How do you think William will handle this with his 2 children seeing as he has spare X2. I feel William has been unsympathetic towards the position that Harry has been in so how will he feel when it is his 2 children are going through the same thing that their Uncle did.

Adultchildofelderlyparents · 19/09/2022 23:13

Yellowjacketforwinter · 19/09/2022 15:07

The Queen's own Father was the "spare", he then became King and the rest is history.

Same with Henry VIII after his older brother Prince Arthur died. The spare is an important role.

Adultchildofelderlyparents · 19/09/2022 23:16

activediscussions · 19/09/2022 17:17

people saying william had an affair are mental. you don't think pippa would have named her daughter the same name if william had had an affair. most stupid posts.

Agree. Also, if Harry was supposedly thrown to the wolves to cover up William's supposed affair, don't people think Harry would have spoken up about that by now? He's been so vocal about everything else!

Adultchildofelderlyparents · 19/09/2022 23:27

DocD · 19/09/2022 18:19

DP is a TV presenter. His employer (think one of big two stations today) sent an email out saying what bits of coverage can’t be used in repeats (Palace PR got this out before end of the service)
included were -
Wessexes using hanky
Zara being upset
Beatrice and Eugenie leaving early
AND
Prince George picking nose!!! So a very normal child then, but not allowed to be seen to be one

Nothing surprising in this though, all standard things that would be taken out anyway. People crying and using a hanky while being upset at a family members funeral, child doing something childish.
The York sisters didn't leave early, they and Zara left at the end of the service - the other family members were going to walk out behind the coffin, they were not and I expect they were being allowed out quickly to get into their waiting car before the other cars were picking up the hundreds of other VIPs.

Novum · 19/09/2022 23:46

I think life will be easier if Charlotte grows up understanding that while they are equals as people, George will be her boss one day. It doesn't seem to bother Anne.

Not necessarily. God forbid anything should happen to George, but if he were to die without direct heirs then she's in the hot seat.

antelopevalley · 20/09/2022 00:35

pawkins · 19/09/2022 12:08

Excellent post. One of the very few posts about the royals worth reading on MN in fact.

Show quote history

Brilliant post, thanks.

OnGoldenPond · 20/09/2022 01:17

eddiemairswife · 19/09/2022 17:51

George 6th turned out to be a pretty good spare. I was not aware he'd had a mistress.

No evidence at all that George VI had an affair, he was regarded by everyone as being devoted to the Queen Mum.

If you are referring to the previous poster saying William had an affair like his father and grandfather before him, his father is King Charles and his grandfather was Prince Philip.

Meili04 · 20/09/2022 08:08

They should get rid of the spare thing and have 1 DC in future. I hope George will do that in future . Infant mortality is very low these days.

JustLyra · 20/09/2022 08:16

Meili04 · 20/09/2022 08:08

They should get rid of the spare thing and have 1 DC in future. I hope George will do that in future . Infant mortality is very low these days.

The last few times the ‘spares’ stepped up had nothing to do with infant mortality.

They’ll always have at least two children if they have any.

DocD · 20/09/2022 08:18

@ajandjjmum TV broadcasting and newspapers are under very different regulations. I hate the fact that the TV lot get cast in the same ‘spurious journo’ light, rules are so much tighter than those governing the Daily Fail and co.

MaulPerton · 20/09/2022 09:51

StolenWillowTree · 19/09/2022 11:24

The heir and spare cycle is really toxic and we've seen the same patterns play out over three generations now going into a fourth.

In every generation, the heir is the important one and the spare exists to protect the heir. In every generation the spare is given a negative or scandalous media persona so the heir can be portrayed as whiter than white (and every generation, the public genuinely believe these media personas are real and an accurate reflection of the real people!). In every generation the Palace allows or even encourages the press to print bad stories about the spare while trying to censor anything bad about the heir. In every generation the heir has a sacred purpose while the spare drifts purposelessly. In every generation there is discord between the heir and spare.

Princess Margaret had a wild child persona pushed on her by the press since she was young. She couldn't marry the man she loved, wound up going through a divorce, life beset with scandal, never really accomplished anything, and ended up an alcoholic and seemed bitter.

Andrew's life has been beset with scandal, money woes and failed business ventures, and now he's widely regarded as a rapist. Edward struggled and had scandals for years, failed military career, failed theatre career, failed TV career, filming William at university scandal, Sophie fake sheik scandal, personal life rumours before ultimately settling for a life of dutiful royal engagements that avoids scandal by being too dull for anyone to take interest. Anne's the only one who escaped the curse of the spare and the only one who actually accomplished something (her horse riding career) for herself.

Harry everyone knows about.

You can already see how it's beginning with a fourth generation. The Cambridges are still young children yet the media are already creating personas for them, and the family trot them out whenever they need a PR boost or are fighting some scandal. The tabloids always portray George as preternaturally mature, serious and well-behaved, while Charlotte and Louis are portrayed as the naughty ones (often with euphemisms like rambunctious, mischievous, energetic, over-tired, through earlier this year a tabloid literally printed ie made up a story with the headline "Charlotte is the naughtiest of all the Cambridge children"). Any time the younger two don't act like perfect robo-children the press jump on the chance to write lots of articles about how naughty they are, that doesn't happen with George. A reporter was even asked to delete footage and not report on George saying he wanted Djokovic to win. What will happen when Charlotte and Louis are teens and start dating and going out? When they have to start choosing their careers and life paths? When the Palace start leaking scandals about Charlotte to protect George? When Louis has to decide between supporting his brother or following whatever his career passion is?

They need to find a way to stop that and protect the spares and not have so much divide. Harry talked about needing to break the cycle and got mocked. In 20 years will Charlotte and Louis be working privately towards meaningful careers and lives, or will they be the new tabloid whipping boys?

Appeals to structures, institutions and 'systems' as explanations for behaviour are attractive for many reasons (e.g., they are comforting) but they also remove personal agency and self-determination from people. While we can never fully discount the influence of any factor, there seem to be enough individuals within the RF who, even if they are not the monarch themselves, nevertheless manage to flourish. If the Queen's much-admired qualities of resilience, stoicism and duty are fostered in George and his siblings, qualities which are also beginning to be seen in their parents, is there any reason to think that any of them should go off the rails?

DocD · 20/09/2022 15:30

@AuroraCake @Adultchildofelderlyparents The line on the sisters leaving early was morning sickness.

milveycrohn · 06/10/2022 12:35

@DocD
"DP is a TV presenter. His employer (think one of big two stations today) sent an email out saying what bits of coverage can’t be used in repeats"
I think this must be quite common.
I noticed this at one of the recent weddings (Eugenie's?). Lady Louise (then age about 14), was in charge of the bridesmaids, and her dress flew up, as she climbed the steps with the children, on entry to St George's Chapel. This, of course, was not shown in the repeats, and for obvious reasons. I am quite sure that the BBC would not have needed to be told to omit that section. They omitted it anyway.

ajandjjmum · 06/10/2022 17:17

milveycrohn · 06/10/2022 12:35

@DocD
"DP is a TV presenter. His employer (think one of big two stations today) sent an email out saying what bits of coverage can’t be used in repeats"
I think this must be quite common.
I noticed this at one of the recent weddings (Eugenie's?). Lady Louise (then age about 14), was in charge of the bridesmaids, and her dress flew up, as she climbed the steps with the children, on entry to St George's Chapel. This, of course, was not shown in the repeats, and for obvious reasons. I am quite sure that the BBC would not have needed to be told to omit that section. They omitted it anyway.

I like the fact that no-one ever mentions this ever!

clyspa · 06/10/2022 17:58

Oh get a grip

Thrown under a bus? It's nonsense. It's suggesting all those who were 'thrown' to the media were quietly at home knitting. You can only get so far with made up stories - the fact is these 'spares' did bring attention to themselves with their behaviour as well.

I have seen a number of threads with mad posts about William not doing this or that for Harry. Harry is a grown man responsible for himself and his family not William.

It's like the idea Harry hated his life and could only escape with Meghan's help / seriously? A man in his 30s with all his contacts and personal wealth?

Lastly give over with the affair conspiracy - if William threw Harry under the bus to cover his affair how come you know about it?

MsFogi · 06/10/2022 18:31

Surely Harry remains an important 'spare' - William's family seems to travel together fairly regularly so surely we are potentially only one plane crash away from Harry becoming King one day?

Sweetmotherofallthatisholyabov · 06/10/2022 18:32

At the risk of sounding completely uninformed- is the heir and spare media portrayal only when there's two. Granted I'm neither old enough to know what the '70's/80's were like and not British either, but is Prince Andrew's and Prince Edwards coverage unfair? Did Princess Anne escape it or did she just make better choices? Or is the point that Charles could have been as bad only he was protected? Because from what I can see they were a bit thick- but then all I've seen is from the media.

Serenster · 06/10/2022 19:06

It seems to have been toxic between the Q and Margaret and with William and Harry, but not between Charles and Anne. Perhaps it's easier with opposite sex siblings?

Picking up on this point, as the thread has been bumped, but Margaret and Elizabeth were close their entire lives. Unlike as portrayed on The Crown, Margaret wasn’t relegated to the sidelines while her sister did royal duties. As soon as she was old enough to wear a tiara she was out representing her father and then her sister. She was the sole UK Royal representative at Queen Juliana of the Netherland’s coronation ceremony and festivities in 1948 when she was just 18, for example. It’s also not the case that her sister prevented her from marrying Peter Townsend either - the Queen and Anthony Eden agreed a deal that meant the only thing she’d have to lose was her place in the line of succession - as the official memo stated, the Queen wanted her sister to be happy. It was then Margaret’s decision not to marry him.

So I don’t think it’s remotely accurate to say that there was a toxic relationship between the two sisters. I think Margaret’s later issues may have had more to do with being married to a sadistic bully, but that’s just supposition. And she later preferred hanging out in her house in Mustique than performing Royal engagements in the UK - well, I can’t say I blame her for that….

Likewhatever · 06/10/2022 20:25

It seems to have been toxic between the Q and Margaret and with William and Harry, but not between Charles and Anne. Perhaps it's easier with opposite sex siblings?
**
Picking up on this point, as the thread has been bumped, but Margaret and Elizabeth were close their entire lives. Unlike as portrayed on The Crown, Margaret wasn’t relegated to the sidelines while her sister did royal duties. As soon as she was old enough to wear a tiara she was out representing her father and then her sister. She was the sole UK Royal representative at Queen Juliana of the Netherland’s coronation ceremony and festivities in 1948 when she was just 18, for example. It’s also not the case that her sister prevented her from marrying Peter Townsend either - the Queen and Anthony Eden agreed a deal that meant the only thing she’d have to lose was her place in the line of succession - as the official memo stated, the Queen wanted her sister to be happy. It was then Margaret’s decision not to marry him.
**
So I don’t think it’s remotely accurate to say that there was a toxic relationship between the two sisters. I think Margaret’s later issues may have had more to do with being married to a sadistic bully, but that’s just supposition. And she later preferred hanging out in her house in Mustique than performing Royal engagements in the UK - well, I can’t say I blame her for that….

I’m not one for fan girl gushing about posts but I’m so glad you posted this. PM was a complicated character. Her close relationship with the Queen and her service to the monarchy is often misrepresented because it makes a better story to portray her as the family black sheep.

clyspa · 07/10/2022 03:39

I agree with posters on the Meghan, the flowers and the aide.

Neither of them were rude or being difficult - they each were trying to be helpful.

I'm not sure what the omid's angle was in highlighting it was though.

Lampzade · 07/10/2022 08:40

MsFogi · 06/10/2022 18:31

Surely Harry remains an important 'spare' - William's family seems to travel together fairly regularly so surely we are potentially only one plane crash away from Harry becoming King one day?

That is exactly what my dh said.

Allthegoodnamesarechosen · 07/10/2022 08:46

eddiemairswife · 19/09/2022 17:51

George 6th turned out to be a pretty good spare. I was not aware he'd had a mistress.

That’s because it is totally untrue.

Allthegoodnamesarechosen · 07/10/2022 08:54

StolenWillowTree · 19/09/2022 20:00

One thing that Anne benefited from is that she was a girl growing up in an era where it was the norm for wealthy women to not work or have careers. That's not really the case anymore. Look at the scale of negative press the York sisters used to receive.

If Charlotte grew up to never earn her own living or have a career, and lived her whole life in a house William paid for, the press coverage would not be positive. Because expectations are different now.

It's sort of a shame that someone with Anne's formidable personality and work ethic didn't really have the opportunity to pursue a career outside of royal duties (apart from her years horse riding). She's near universally respected for her duty and the number of engagements she does, but surely had the potential to do so much more than shake hands and open supermarkets?

The Princess Royal plays a very active role in several charities. I mean, in the formulation of policy, not just hand shaking. I am friends with one of her fellow board members, a person who would not be impressed into hyperbole. To dismiss her activities as opening supermarkets is a bit silly.

Red Rum used to open supermarkets, though. I expect HRH would have liked to share those occasions.

SallyLockheart · 07/10/2022 08:59

I think Princess Anne did a bit more than just horse riding !

NiqueNique · 07/10/2022 09:04

Princess Anne is eminently sensible, stoic and hard working. She was always going to turn out just fine, whatever the circumstances of her birth.

Dinoteeth · 07/10/2022 09:08

I think Harry walking away is a pretty big blow for William especially.
Harry could have played a very important role for William and Charles.

As much as having a slim monarchy is important for its future. There is slim and being down to bare bones.

The issue isn't now, when Charles, Ann & Edward are all fit carrying out engagements. The issue is in 10 years time when they are ageing and Williams kids are still very young.