Who advised the Queen to walk into the Abbey escorted by Andrew??

[TinyTortoise]

This seems to be the most tone deaf and damaging decision. It's a public facing event with international leaders and royals. If it was a closed family gathering I could understand it - he is her son still- but why on earth would they allow him to escort her to her seat?! He should be invisible from now on and never represent the RF again. He could have attended and stood somewhere out of the way. She could have chosen anyone to escort her. It's staggeringly awful!

I agree, queenoffairies. However it often happens that a young woman who has been trafficked and thoroughly brainwashed in the process, goes on to traffic others. It has happened over here and all over the world in less high profile cases and I fear it will always go on. I wouldn't blame Virginia Giuffre for that and believe that her speaking out against Ghislane Maxwell and Epstein was part of her trying to make up for her part in recruiting other girls; indeed it did prompt several to come forward and give their own accounts.

It is difficult to comprehend how people like Epstein wield such power over the minds of others but they do. Stockholm syndrome is not unusual in such cases. He had tremendous influence in many different ways over all sorts of people.

I have some sympathy with Maxwell in all this. Who would ever have thought that she would have been driving around trying to find girls for her supposed 'boyfriend'? However, despite her education and society profile, she was a vulnerable woman. That all ended many years ago but she is now paying for her involvement.

It's a very sad and sordid business with no winners though I daresay a very large sum of money goes some way to soothing the wounds.

It will be interesting to see what happens with the cases of those counter-suing Virginia Giuffre - if we live long enough! I probably won't :-).

I think Charles should have escorted his mother. No need for Andrew to.

@Ellie56

After yesterday's performance, does this mean we're likely to be seeing the paedo prince playing a starring role in the jubilee celebrations?

I think that's exactly what Charles and William are trying to find out today.

@Lesperance

I agree that he comes across as really stupid. But does that explain why he is so tone deaf? Can he really be that thick?

Yes, I think he is that thick. There seems to be a thread of low I.Q. running through the royal family. Harry is another one, but his thickness is from Diana. If either of those two was the heir I'm pretty sure we would be getting a Republic.

@Lesperance

I agree that he comes across as really stupid. But does that explain why he is so tone deaf? Can he really be that thick?

My best guess is it's a combination of not being very bright, plus a sense of entitlement and arrogance. He's been around so many toadies and flunkies that it's impaired his sense of awareness. If you think about it, Emily Maitlis said he was under the impression that their car crash of an interview had gone well. That says it all. Actually I can well imagine he'd be easy to manipulate.

Yes. And he was manipulated by ostentatiousness, wealth and compliments in the M.E. Hence the Arms deals he brokered with the backhanders obviously denied. He's a fool taken in by wealth.

Honestly, that combination of personal qualities could've led to him causing much more damage than he has.

The age of consent is relevant if you want to allege hebephilia or that Giuffre was below the age of consent. I didn't introduce the question.

The law disagrees with you regarding whether those trafficked can consent. I'm not saying I disagree with you, but the law does. Of course, for an offence the accused must know that the complainant did not consent. So, if the accused was not aware that the complainant was trafficked and reasonably believed she consented, they are not guilty of an offence.

The age of consent issue was introduced prior to the hebephilia question - it is not confined to that.

I have not said that a trafficked person cannot consent full stop. A trafficked person could freely enter into a loving and consensual relationship for example. But a person trafficked for sexual exploitation cannot give free nor informed consent to the acts they have been trafficked for.

This is recognised within prostitution with the offence of paying for sexual services of a prostitute subject to force. Could be an aggressive pimp, could be a trafficker. And a punter can be convicted regardless of whether they knew the prostitute was subject to force.

There’s less protection for victims of sexual abuse networks where money is not directly changing hands.

Maybe Andrew came in through the side door so that the clergy etc at the front door wouldn't have to shake hands with him

If he'd come through the side door alone that might have been valid, but since it was arranged to save the Queen walking far, it seems his entrance is now just being used to make the Queen's choice sound less unwise

It also ignores the fact he walked her out as well as in, when he could quite easily have slipped away instead of grabbing every opportunity which arose

'Did you see the difficulty she had putting her glasses on and then getting back into the car? Fine is not a word I’d associate with that old lady - she’s old, frail and clearly struggling.'

She's 96 nearly. Not sprightly, no. Probably arthritic fingers making glasses fiddly. For her age she looked absolutely fine.

'That old lady', how charming.

@JaniieJones

'Did you see the difficulty she had putting her glasses on and then getting back into the car? Fine is not a word I’d associate with that old lady - she’s old, frail and clearly struggling.'

She's 96 nearly. Not sprightly, no. Probably arthritic fingers making glasses fiddly. For her age she looked absolutely fine.

'That old lady', how charming.

She was doing the classic old lady ferreting in her handbag thing. Both my mum and my gran did it in their 90s.

Irrelevant to the point I was making, Thoosa

It’s either normal, upstanding behaviour or it isn’t.

And still irrelevant. I pointed out that there was nothing in @TatianaBis' post that evidenced hebephilia (for the reasons @prh47bridge has pointed out). None of that was a comment on the behaviour in question. People can be guilty of bad behaviour without being hebephiles.

Yes, I think he is that thick. There seems to be a thread of low I.Q. running through the royal family. Harry is another one, but his thickness is from Diana.

See also Edward VIII. I saw something recently about documents showing that, during WW2, he was happily advising the Germans that they needed to bomb Britain more to bring them to heel. And then he wondered why no-one was keen on letting him back into the UK subsequently.

He WAS at his father's funeral

He was indeed. And made damn sure his florid mug was centre stage there too.

I've seen reports today that he 'insisted' on escorting Mummy and is still deluded enough to think he can make a creeping return to some sort of public life.

I think it's a near certainty he'll wheel himself on somewhere during the upcoming Jubilee circus. His ego doesn't travel well in back seats.

@JaniieJones

'Did you see the difficulty she had putting her glasses on and then getting back into the car? Fine is not a word I’d associate with that old lady - she’s old, frail and clearly struggling.'

She's 96 nearly. Not sprightly, no. Probably arthritic fingers making glasses fiddly. For her age she looked absolutely fine.

'That old lady', how charming.

That’s who she was - an old lady struggling.

She did not look “fine” by any stretch of the imagination.

@Ellie56

After yesterday's performance, does this mean we're likely to be seeing the paedo prince playing a starring role in the jubilee celebrations?

No chance imo.

Charles and William are in charge of a lot of the royal events now. The Queen is still in charge of family events.

They’re not going to risk their positions by letting him be around.

If anything they’ll likely use to make “he has no part in our watch” points by making sure people know that when it’s their call he’s not around.

I can’t make excuses for Virginia recruiting other girls , I just can’t . she was probably 18 at the time, legally an adult. there are so many other things that just don’t make sense.

You need to understand the grooming process. If someone is coerced in to having sex against their well, even if they are financially rewarded for it, or more accurately, paid to keep quiet, they can be cooerced and pressured in to recruiting others. Grooming starts in very small ways, favours are done, victims feel beholden, then the pressure intensifies ... .

This article explains the process well: time.com/6125081/ghislaine-maxwell-grooming-trial/

Remember that Ghislaine Maxwell was effectively groomed by her father (not perhaps sexually , although theIr relationship was described as being unnaturally close, but she was very much under his control psychologically, whereas her brothers were bullied by their father, she was the "golden child") and when her father was disgraced and died, she went on to be groomed by Epstein who met her, very conveniently, when she was vulnerable and broke! And she proceeded to groom others who in turn recruited more candidates to be groomed. And so it goes on.

She did not look “fine” by any stretch of the imagination

I thought she looked pretty good considering her age and the emotion of the occasion.

I think there might be some major rethinking about the jubilee, the Queen looks quite frail , the Caribbean tour was not what was expected, many people are feeling the effects of inflation and now the possibility that Andrew Might make an appearance are valid reasons for scaling it down or crossing it out all together.

We could be be having the exact debate again in few months, he is her fav son , she is his beloved mother and so on 🤷🏼‍♀️

@EthelTheAardvark

Irrelevant to the point I was making, Thoosa

It’s either normal, upstanding behaviour or it isn’t.

And still irrelevant. I pointed out that there was nothing in @TatianaBis' post that evidenced hebephilia (for the reasons @prh47bridge has pointed out). None of that was a comment on the behaviour in question. People can be guilty of bad behaviour without being hebephiles.

Leaving pompous technical terms aside: either Andrew accepted massages from and fucked other teenage girls in Epstein’s abuse network or he didn’t.

If he didn’t, he failed to recognise, or turned a blind eye to, the abuse going on around him that many other people identified. For a man who was patron of the NSPCC with two daughters - that is really quite extraordinary. Quite apart from the wisdom of consorting with a convicted sex offender and bringing the whole monarchy into disrepute.

Being acquainted with Epstein’s set up at 3 different establishments where girls were on offer all the time, I think it’s more likely that he did fuck other teenage girls than he didn’t.

@CathyorClaire

He WAS at his father's funeral

He was indeed. And made damn sure his florid mug was centre stage there too.

I've seen reports today that he 'insisted' on escorting Mummy and is still deluded enough to think he can make a creeping return to some sort of public life.

I think it's a near certainty he'll wheel himself on somewhere during the upcoming Jubilee circus. His ego doesn't travel well in back seats.

This.

I believe he is absolutely determined to get a public role back and think that she deliberately wanted to show her support. I think it was a message to the rest of the family, who by all accounts are not fans of his. He could have slipped off quietly, but it was done ostentatiously for a reason. Don't forget, these people are surrounded by people who agree with them all the time, so I would guess that the queen has a expectation that if she feels it is ok, we should all fall into line with that.

The wider family weren't too impressed with him, I've never seen so many busy studying the order of service to avoid eye contact!

I can imagine him pushing the Queen into it, telling her as they arrived that he wanted to help her and not hand her over to the Dean, as he was supposed to on entry to the abbey. Hard for her to have a disagreement about it in public.

Perhaps that was really why Beatrice was crying—she knew a family row would ensue because her father had screwed up.

'She did not look “fine” by any stretch of the imagination'

She is 95. She was walking upright, she looked engaged and fully aware I'm sorry to ruin your expectations but that is fine for a 95 yr old.

@JaniieJones

'She did not look “fine” by any stretch of the imagination'

She is 95. She was walking upright, she looked engaged and fully aware I'm sorry to ruin your expectations but that is fine for a 95 yr old.

Did you see her getting into the car at the end?

She is not fine, far from it.