Who advised the Queen to walk into the Abbey escorted by Andrew??

[TinyTortoise]

This seems to be the most tone deaf and damaging decision. It's a public facing event with international leaders and royals. If it was a closed family gathering I could understand it - he is her son still- but why on earth would they allow him to escort her to her seat?! He should be invisible from now on and never represent the RF again. He could have attended and stood somewhere out of the way. She could have chosen anyone to escort her. It's staggeringly awful!

@prh47bridge

And, to respond to the last question in TatianaBis's post, none of Epstein's other victims have made any allegations against Andrew apart from one who claimed that he used the hand of his Spitting Image puppet to touch her breast - like Giuffre, she was over the age of consent at the time.

Johanna Sjoberg is her name, she was working for Epstein whom she alleges groped her breast.

Harping on about the age of consent in a trafficking case is disingenuous in cases of sexual assault or trafficking. Those trafficked for sexual exploitation cannot give free and informed consent as I have already pointed out.

For the women on here defending him, seriously consider how you would feel if this was your teenage daughter.

As sad as I am about Harry and Meghan, they must be feeling extremely relieved not to have been part of proceedings yesterday.

Along with the optics in Belize etc this week has been terrible for the RF. If the Queen is very poorly perhaps she has just lost her grip, not able to steer the ship in her usual manner and not able to think with clarity. I can not think she would be agreeable to any of this.

I suspect Andrew was supposed to pull back, but choose not to. What an absolute B**

'His advisors did try to advise him but he used to tell them to fuck off and he was only answerable to HMQ'

Yes but why didn't they the advisors then tell tales to HMQ and Prince Philip I wonder. Say his (at best) reckless associations and 'randy Andy' image wasn't a joke and would do serious damage to the institution.

It's all very weird. Mind this is the family who thought it was a good idea for a naive, vulnerable 19yr old with a history of emotional instability to marry Prince Charles..

Exactly Sway. These girls were vulnerable. They had chaotic lives, VG had lived on the streets, others had one parent only, often absent, they were truants and runaways which is why GM would trawl round malls and trailer parks looking for new victims.

I've often wondered where the loot for the Lodge in Verbier came from? The proceeds of that sale are remarkably similar to the settlement amount also.

'If the Queen is very poorly perhaps she has just lost her grip, not able to steer the ship in her usual manner and not able to think with clarity. I can not think she would be agreeable to any of this.'

She looked fine to me. I'm sure she is thinking clearly she just obviously supports him.

I don't know Janiie
I imagine the hierarchy within the RF staff just did not allow it. At the top the Queen, and what she says, goes. And of course he would no doubt be threatening them in some way.
I doubt he was ever answerable to anyone. That gives a person total carte blanche to behave how they like.

If PC doesn't make massive changes once he takes over, the RF just will not last... it will become a parody of itself.

Did she really look fine to you janiie?

It was only decided two hours beforehand she was even able to attend. Her legs were shaking and her eyes very watery, she looked very unsteady and distracted. Andrew took his moment to silently shout bollox to all those that had aggrieved him. Is there anywhere in the world we could ship him off to, maybe Russia will have him? Plenty of playboys there with no ethics or morals.

@JaniieJones

'If the Queen is very poorly perhaps she has just lost her grip, not able to steer the ship in her usual manner and not able to think with clarity. I can not think she would be agreeable to any of this.'

She looked fine to me. I'm sure she is thinking clearly she just obviously supports him.

Did you see the difficulty she had putting her glasses on and then getting back into the car?

Fine is not a word I’d associate with that old lady - she’s old, frail and clearly struggling.

[quote TatianaBis]@prh47bridge

And, to respond to the last question in TatianaBis's post, none of Epstein's other victims have made any allegations against Andrew apart from one who claimed that he used the hand of his Spitting Image puppet to touch her breast - like Giuffre, she was over the age of consent at the time.

Johanna Sjoberg is her name, she was working for Epstein whom she alleges groped her breast.

Harping on about the age of consent in a trafficking case is disingenuous in cases of sexual assault or trafficking. Those trafficked for sexual exploitation cannot give free and informed consent as I have already pointed out.[/quote]
The age of consent is relevant if you want to allege hebephilia or that Giuffre was below the age of consent. I didn't introduce the question.

The law disagrees with you regarding whether those trafficked can consent. I'm not saying I disagree with you, but the law does. Of course, for an offence the accused must know that the complainant did not consent. So, if the accused was not aware that the complainant was trafficked and reasonably believed she consented, they are not guilty of an offence.

It's incredible that at 96yo she managed to attend. I doubt we will see much of her again.

StartupRepair

“I've only seen bits of the service. I think it would have been more galling to see PA stride in the front door, greeting everyone and swagger up through the middle”

I agree . I watched the whole service and he was only on screen momentarily.

@Thoosa

Some people think he should not have walked the Queen in and out but surely only the most heartless frothers think he should not have been there at all.

When you say “heartless frothers” does that mean those of us who disapprove of rape, hebephilia and sex trafficking? Including those of us who are survivors or sexual assault?

Well I assume you disapprove of murder as much if not more so are you disgusted that convicted killer get to go to funerals?

So, if the accused was not aware that the complainant was trafficked and reasonably believed she consented, they are not guilty of an offence

And how can that be proved? Because of course these sleazy men will say they didn't know. When in fact they knew, or suspected.
Seeing a load of nubile 14-15 year olds on a plane would lead one to know I imagine.

@Roussette

It's incredible that at 96yo she managed to attend. I doubt we will see much of her again.

And isn’t it sad, and telling, that our last memory of her could be this unedifying spectacle of her allowing herself to be used by Andrew.

I’ve really had enough of the pair of them now.

It wasn’t a funeral.

Honest. It really wasn’t.

@Roussette

It's incredible that at 96yo she managed to attend. I doubt we will see much of her again.

I wonder if Maybe she went so Andrew wouldn’t be strolling in with everyone else? Or was he going to stay behind & keep her company?

prh47bridge you explain things so much better than I do. Thank you.

He was only seen briefly on camera because the Firm declared he should not be seen. Normally the press would be all over this like a rash with pics galore.

This is what we are dealing with re the RF. Manipulation of the news, not for the first time either. There is a lot of dirt under the carpet I reckon.

Someone above mentioned that the Q is ensuring that Charles has a difficult reign. Well that shocked me, but I honestly would put nothing past any of them. They have little accountability for their actions and the Q is the monarch and will do what she likes. The peasants will forever be outside the gate while she is alive.

sway I sure you I’m not defending him, but this particular case is just perplexing, i had a completely different take on the case till more things came out to light, unLike others on here, I can’t make excuses for Virginia recruiting other girls , I just can’t . she was probably 18 at the time, legally an adult. there are so many other things that just don’t make sense.
But it seems that for anyone else judging this case like I do, we are either royalists or stupid or ignorant. It’s insane.

After yesterday's performance, does this mean we're likely to be seeing the paedo prince playing a starring role in the jubilee celebrations?

@Roussette

So, if the accused was not aware that the complainant was trafficked and reasonably believed she consented, they are not guilty of an offence

And how can that be proved? Because of course these sleazy men will say they didn't know. When in fact they knew, or suspected.
Seeing a load of nubile 14-15 year olds on a plane would lead one to know I imagine.

There are a number of circumstances where it is assumed that the accused is aware that the complainant did not consent. It is then up to them to prove that they reasonably believed the complainant consented. Simply saying they thought she did is not enough. Given that the majority of rape cases that get to court result in a conviction, it is clearly not an easy way out for the accused to claim they believed the complainant consented.

Of course, if the complainant is 14 or 15, it doesn't matter whether the accused believed she consented.

@Swayingpalmtrees

Did she really look fine to you janiie?

She looks like an old lady fast approaching her 96th birthday. She’s in incredibly good nick for someone that age, far better than most. She’s got great genes on her mother’s side.

@Swayingpalmtrees

For the women on here defending him, seriously consider how you would feel if this was your teenage daughter.

Is anyone "defending" him?

No one is saying he did nothing wrong, that he is a credit to the royal family. Everyone agrees he is, and always has been even before the latest disaster, a nasty piece of work in so many ways.

But he has not been PROVED guilty of rape or trafficking. He may BE guilty, he may not.