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The royal family

Prince Charles to alter the Letters Patent - Sussex Children won't become Prince/Princess

999 replies

Comeinoutoftherain · 20/06/2021 07:35

Apologies for the Daily Mail reference, but it's all I have so far.

Apparently PC told H&M shortly before the Oprah interview that his intention was to amend the Letters Patent so that only the children in direct line to the throne (aka William's children) would receive the Prince/Princess title.

So neither Archie nor Lilibet were going to be "upgraded" to Prince/Princess on the Queen's death.

That explains that slightly vague comments made in the OW interview about Archie not being made a Prince; and why relations between PC and H&M were clearly very fraught.

If this is true (and I accept it's hard to see the wood for the trees with the constant press briefings from both sides) I can see it from both points of view.

Harry is in Prince Andrew's position (as a royal, not as a person) which makes Archie and Lilibet on a par with Beatrice and Eugenie. As they get older, and William's children start their own families, the Sussex children drop down the pecking order pretty quickly.

I think Charles has it right that the British Public don't want to keep paying for an extended royal family, you can see that playing out in Europe at the moment. So even if H&M were working royals, their children likely won't be; and I can understand why he wants to present a limited number of royals to the public.

From Harry's perspective, it must feel like a downgrade. It must be difficult being the second (and only other) child in a hierarchical monarchy; being aware from the beginning of all that William is to inherit. Having his children lose something that is currently their birthright must sting a bit.

This should probably have been considered before William and Harry had kids. I doubt it would have been as big a deal when you are not considering actual children, just abstract ones. Or at the very least, it should have been done when the Letters Patent were altered for George, Charlotte and Louis.

It's clearly added to an already tense atmosphere and won't help family relations get back on track.

OP posts:
Wakeupin2022 · 25/06/2021 08:51

@queenofarles

I’m not sure its genuine, it doesn’t make sense, why is his title the baby’s father name Confused
Nothing makes sense! But I do believe this is genuine.

Why he has used HRH in the certificate- who knows. It may even be something he has been advised to do by his family.

Cacacoisfarraige · 25/06/2021 09:10

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Mummy194 · 25/06/2021 09:18

@Roussette

All three Cambridge babies Birth certificates were published on every single newspaper and online

Accompanied with an article slagging the parents off in every which way?

Nah

You are correct @Roussette

It's disgusting the DM links a newborn baby with slagging off.

Why are the DM publishing her certificate anyway, Do they publish every birth certificate that comes out of the US papers. Don't they bang on about H&M being irrelevant anyway?

Cacacoisfarraige · 25/06/2021 09:25

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JustLyra · 25/06/2021 09:25

@queenofarles

I’m not sure its genuine, it doesn’t make sense, why is his title the baby’s father name Confused
Because that’s his name.

It’s the same on Archie’s birth certificate

It’ll just look more clunky with the first and surname split up whereas on UK cert they run together

queenofarles · 25/06/2021 09:34

JustLyra
On Archies Cert. it says father name :HRH Henry Charles Albert.
I don’t think it’s that different to the UK, Meghan has her name as simply Rachel Meghan and last name Markle .
That’s why I think it must have been altered.
His title is not his name surly ?

Oldbutstillgotit · 25/06/2021 09:41

I know this has been debated endlessly but I cannot understand why they didn’t simply call the baby Lili which is a lovely name . She could have been Lili Elizabeth Diana which would be have honoured both HM and Diana. And before anyone mentions Henry/ Harry , if my memory serves me right , it was deemed at the time ( nearly 40 years ago) that Harry wasn’t sufficiently regal for someone so close to the throne.

Comeinoutoftherain · 25/06/2021 09:44

Making anything out of that birth certificate is a bit of a stretch.

Harry is still technically HRH so can use it on birth certificates. Maybe he wanted to use it so that this certificate matches Archie's?

Meghan can use her full name if she wants to. It's anecdotally interesting that she's retaining her maiden name rather than taking Mountbatten Windsor, but that's her choice.

Is an American national allowed to use foreign titles gifted to her when registering an American birth?

I'm not one to defend H&M, but maybe she always preferred to use her maiden name on both birth certificates but BP recommended her title for Archie's - now they aren't working royals BP won't be making recommendations.

I don't see the need for every tiny decision they make to be raked over by the press. It's a bloody birth certificate.

Most people don't have these issues as they don't have titles and unusual surname issues. E.g. does William actually have a surname and if so, is it Windsor, Wales or Cambridge - very complicated for legal documents!

OP posts:
Comeinoutoftherain · 25/06/2021 09:46

@Roussette

All three Cambridge babies Birth certificates were published on every single newspaper and online

Accompanied with an article slagging the parents off in every which way?

Nah

I agree with you.

There's no need for a witch hunt over a birth certificate.

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Wanttocry · 25/06/2021 09:48

Because that’s his name.

It’s the same on Archie’s birth certificate

It’ll just look more clunky with the first and surname split up whereas on UK cert they run together

On Archie’s it’s “HRH Henry Charles Albert David, Duke of Sussex”

On Lili’s it’s “The Duke of Sussex His Royal Highness” with the Duke of Sussex being listed as his first name, and his actual given name (Henry) not appearing at all.

Which I think (without any negative opinion about one version or the other) is a mildly interesting difference.

Comeinoutoftherain · 25/06/2021 09:51

@Wanttocry

Because that’s his name.

It’s the same on Archie’s birth certificate

It’ll just look more clunky with the first and surname split up whereas on UK cert they run together

On Archie’s it’s “HRH Henry Charles Albert David, Duke of Sussex”

On Lili’s it’s “The Duke of Sussex His Royal Highness” with the Duke of Sussex being listed as his first name, and his actual given name (Henry) not appearing at all.

Which I think (without any negative opinion about one version or the other) is a mildly interesting difference.

I bet the person registering Lilibet's birth was totally confused by the title! Surely Harry's actual name ought to be on there somewhere? 🤷‍♀️

In future someone else might use the title Duke of Sussex, so how do they distinguish who they certificate refers to?

OP posts:
Wanttocry · 25/06/2021 09:55

In future someone else might use the title Duke of Sussex, so how do they distinguish who they certificate refers to?

Well lots of people have the same name as someone else, it’s not a problem on marriage or birth certificates. You have the parents’ birthdays recorded as well.

JustLyra · 25/06/2021 09:58

In future someone else might use the title Duke of Sussex, so how do they distinguish who they certificate refers to?

By the date. There’s only ever one Duke/Duchess/Prince of Wales/HM The Queen at a time so it’s easily worked out.

Samcro · 25/06/2021 09:58

i can't believe people are now questioning a birth certificate. just shows how low people will go.

Roussette · 25/06/2021 10:05

The DM will find anything absolutely anything to have a dig. They need their 20 articles a day on Harry & Meghan

(slight exaggeration there, but there has been 26 once apparently)

Cacacoisfarraige · 25/06/2021 10:08

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Cacacoisfarraige · 25/06/2021 10:12

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Roussette · 25/06/2021 10:14

I’m more interested to hear how it’s disgusting really

Course you are.

Maybe read my previous post? Or the one at 08.40 or the one at 08.12?

Not my problem if you don't read my posts explaining why I think it is awful.

Cacacoisfarraige · 25/06/2021 10:21

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Cacacoisfarraige · 25/06/2021 10:24

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JustLyra · 25/06/2021 10:30

Using a title as a name in places that don’t recognise them has happened before.

Ernst August of Hannover has Prince as part of his name on his German passport despite the 1919 abolition of titles. It’s accepted as part of his name.

I can’t find a link, but I’m also fairly sure Princess Madeleine of Sweden was named similarly on her daughters American birth certificate

Mummy194 · 25/06/2021 10:31

@Samcro

i can't believe people are now questioning a birth certificate. just shows how low people will go.
Was there a thread discussing baby August lately, I don't recall, nor do I recall one nitpicking any other royal baby, not even George's one.
Cacacoisfarraige · 25/06/2021 10:32

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Cacacoisfarraige · 25/06/2021 10:35

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RickiTarr · 25/06/2021 10:47

@Roussette

I've never seen birth certificates of royal babies published before. In the Daily Mail and used as a weapon to discredit the baby's parents. But I knew without fail posters on here would think it's OK.
It’s certainly done every singe time in this generation.

I’m not sure why you’d bother to insist otherwise.

I’m torn between being vaguely interested in the title issues, and mildly intrusive. The titles all strike me as silly because I’m not much of a monarchist but I suppose this is all part of the job.

I’d always want fu forenames to figure on my children’s birth certificates, though. It’s so personal and a formalisation of a very important relationship.

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