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The royal family

Prince Charles to alter the Letters Patent - Sussex Children won't become Prince/Princess

999 replies

Comeinoutoftherain · 20/06/2021 07:35

Apologies for the Daily Mail reference, but it's all I have so far.

Apparently PC told H&M shortly before the Oprah interview that his intention was to amend the Letters Patent so that only the children in direct line to the throne (aka William's children) would receive the Prince/Princess title.

So neither Archie nor Lilibet were going to be "upgraded" to Prince/Princess on the Queen's death.

That explains that slightly vague comments made in the OW interview about Archie not being made a Prince; and why relations between PC and H&M were clearly very fraught.

If this is true (and I accept it's hard to see the wood for the trees with the constant press briefings from both sides) I can see it from both points of view.

Harry is in Prince Andrew's position (as a royal, not as a person) which makes Archie and Lilibet on a par with Beatrice and Eugenie. As they get older, and William's children start their own families, the Sussex children drop down the pecking order pretty quickly.

I think Charles has it right that the British Public don't want to keep paying for an extended royal family, you can see that playing out in Europe at the moment. So even if H&M were working royals, their children likely won't be; and I can understand why he wants to present a limited number of royals to the public.

From Harry's perspective, it must feel like a downgrade. It must be difficult being the second (and only other) child in a hierarchical monarchy; being aware from the beginning of all that William is to inherit. Having his children lose something that is currently their birthright must sting a bit.

This should probably have been considered before William and Harry had kids. I doubt it would have been as big a deal when you are not considering actual children, just abstract ones. Or at the very least, it should have been done when the Letters Patent were altered for George, Charlotte and Louis.

It's clearly added to an already tense atmosphere and won't help family relations get back on track.

OP posts:
Roussette · 24/06/2021 21:46

I believe they had no choice. It was leaked to the press and not by them
They can hardly be blamed for that

Lockdownbear · 24/06/2021 21:50

I didn't realise it had been leaked.
But they also had a year to fully decide what they wanted to do. During that year the door was kept open for them to return.

goldierocks · 24/06/2021 21:59

(Quotes in italics are from a previous post).

"In the meantime, within the palace someone raises concerns about the baby's skin tone, at the same time H&M are told that their babies will not be Prince and Princess. This is apparently due to slim down, too many prince/ess apparently, despite the fact that the palace went out of their way to change Charlotte and Louis - instead of saying first born is to be titled wether boy or girl and we just stick to that line. So H&M figure, too many princes is not the problem here. What if W&K had 5 children. Also the rule is not extended to H himself who may have had his own 6 children. So at the time of the rule, you never know if there could eventually be 11 prince/es."

Harry and Meghan gave different accounts during the OW interview. Meghan said "I can give you an honest answer. In those months when I was pregnant, all around this same time ... we have in tandem the conversation of 'he won't be given security. He's not going to be given a title' and also concerns and conversations about how dark his skin might be when he is born."

Harry said there was one conversation, and "that was right at the beginning...right at the beginning."

The skin colour conversation (one, not plural), as Harry described it, had actually taken place before the couple had even got engaged, at quite an early stage of their relationship. The question had not been asked specifically about Archie, but about any babies that Harry and Meghan might possibly have. 'Yeah,' said Harry, confirming the question that had been put to him by the unnamed person was 'What will the kids look like?'.

The Letters Patent were not changed specifically for Charlotte and Louis. The change was made in 2012 before any of the Cambridge children had been born. It ensured that if a girl was born first, she would not have a 'lower' title in the event she had a younger male sibling. It also said that all future Cambridge children would be titled prince/princess from birth, not just the eldest.

"To top it off they are told that because of this lack of prince title, the baby will not have protection. H&M ask why, no answer (they are well aware that security is about threat, from the Met because H did ask that question on an unrelated matter). They are well aware at this point that the palace can alter rules as they wish."

Royal security is decided and provided by the Metropolitan Police, specifically the Royal and VIP Executive Committee. The Royal households ('palace') do not decide who does and does not get security.

"Archie is born, and without consultation, he is titled Master. A statement is put out as such, with a brief that H&M wanted it so to protect the baby. Except, they never said any such thing."

Either the mother or father must be present when a birth certificate is produced. If 'someone' told the registrar to write something on the certificate that either parent was unhappy with, they could have declined to sign it. They could have put the registration on hold to seek clarification. Births do not need to be registered until 42 days after the birth. There was plenty of time to discuss how they wanted Archie's title to appear (they could have used Harry's lower title for him).

"At this point H&M realise that it could well be a reality that LPs really could be changed for their DC."

Their DC will be prince/princess according to the current Letters Patent as soon as Prince Charles ascends the throne. Only the monarch can issue LP's and there have been no reports that the Queen is planning to make any changes.
To put it another way - immediately upon the Queen's death, Archie and Lili will become prince/princess. At that point, Charles cannot issue LP's to take those titles away. Only an Act of Parliament can remove a birthright title once it has been granted (the 1917 Title Deprivation Act).

"They ask themselves, what is the point of them being senior working royals and getting the brunt of the criticism, working at a senior level with all the threats, when babies will not even be protected. They could be like the cousins B&E etc. They can go out make a living (does not have to be a 9-5, could be different projects like the Philipps etc.), but they will be there if HMQ needs them for something. Sussex Royal umbrella will take care of the existing charities if need be. They will set up shop on CW country of Canada to make working together easy."

According to this timeline, by this point Harry and Meghan had been upset by the 'skin colour' comment from a family member, were upset that Archie was not going to be a prince and have no security and disagreed with what was written on his birth certificate. Yet they still wanted to remain working for the Queen, albeit on a reduced basis. From their own statement: "The preference of The Duke and Duchess of Sussex was to continue to represent and support Her Majesty The Queen albeit in a more limited capacity, while not drawing on theSovereign Grant."

"PC cuts the funds and security. H asks if the risk has been assessed as lowered. No."

Prince Charles has no power/authority to cut security. This can only be done by the Metropolitan Police (the Royal and VIP Executive Committee). The protection of members of the royal family is based on a threat assessment conducted by the Joint Terrorism Analysis Centre and is based on intelligence, with security given to those who “face a large enough risk”.

When the accounts were published today, it was confirmed the Sussexes no longer received funding from Prince Charles by the end of the first fiscal quarter (some point between April-June 2020).

"They scramble around. Tyler Perry to the rescue - come live at my empty house and security will be provided. (I have to say at this point that PC was likely instructed at this point to cut the funds, don't think he would have just done in personally, with a grandchild this young). Yes, they go. Advice from old friends about a way forward. Netflix, Spotify etc. are concluded."

The Sussexes moved into Tyler Perry's LA home in March 2020. Meghan confirmed this date in the OW interview. Harry added: "The biggest concern was that while we were in Canada, in someone else’s house, I then got told at short notice security was going to be removed."

Omid Scobie has released a statement on Twitter today which says: "Despite some confusing reports, Prince Charles and Prince Harry's timelines for the period the Sussexes' financial support ended are the same. Clarence House says funding continued until last summer (Q1 of the UK's fiscal year is April to June) and Harry told Oprah the same.'

For clarity, what Harry actually said is: "Yeah, in the first half, the first quarter of 2021". (I.e. Harry didn't mean calendar quarter, he obviously meant fiscal quarter!!!)

We now know the move to LA was somewhere between 1 to 3 months before the funding from Prince Charles ended. I don't think that is particularly 'short notice' (it's a standard notice period in England). Omid Scobie has now gone on the record agreeing with the funding timeline and therefore must also agree that the Sussexes were in LA for at least one month (and up to theee months) before the funding ended.

"H&M were hurt that security was taken from baby Archie definitely, and were also hurt by what they saw as racism against him. What parent would not be. They were not whinging and complaining. They had resigned themselves to what took place. There were lots of questions about why they left. I think they just came to recount a certain time and the events that took place."

There seemed to be a significant downshift in public sympathy towards the Sussexes following the Tom Bradby "not many people have asked if I’m ok" interview while on the Africa tour. It was seen as 'whinging and complaining' whilst among some of the poorest human beings on the planet.

Even in spite of all the 'hurt', the Sussexes still wanted to work for the Queen albeit on a limited/part time basis. I doubt the OW interview and subsequent public outpourings would have happened if their request had been granted.

DeRigueurMortis · 24/06/2021 22:22

@goldierocks

(Quotes in italics are from a previous post).

"In the meantime, within the palace someone raises concerns about the baby's skin tone, at the same time H&M are told that their babies will not be Prince and Princess. This is apparently due to slim down, too many prince/ess apparently, despite the fact that the palace went out of their way to change Charlotte and Louis - instead of saying first born is to be titled wether boy or girl and we just stick to that line. So H&M figure, too many princes is not the problem here. What if W&K had 5 children. Also the rule is not extended to H himself who may have had his own 6 children. So at the time of the rule, you never know if there could eventually be 11 prince/es."

Harry and Meghan gave different accounts during the OW interview. Meghan said "I can give you an honest answer. In those months when I was pregnant, all around this same time ... we have in tandem the conversation of 'he won't be given security. He's not going to be given a title' and also concerns and conversations about how dark his skin might be when he is born."

Harry said there was one conversation, and "that was right at the beginning...right at the beginning."

The skin colour conversation (one, not plural), as Harry described it, had actually taken place before the couple had even got engaged, at quite an early stage of their relationship. The question had not been asked specifically about Archie, but about any babies that Harry and Meghan might possibly have. 'Yeah,' said Harry, confirming the question that had been put to him by the unnamed person was 'What will the kids look like?'.

The Letters Patent were not changed specifically for Charlotte and Louis. The change was made in 2012 before any of the Cambridge children had been born. It ensured that if a girl was born first, she would not have a 'lower' title in the event she had a younger male sibling. It also said that all future Cambridge children would be titled prince/princess from birth, not just the eldest.

"To top it off they are told that because of this lack of prince title, the baby will not have protection. H&M ask why, no answer (they are well aware that security is about threat, from the Met because H did ask that question on an unrelated matter). They are well aware at this point that the palace can alter rules as they wish."

Royal security is decided and provided by the Metropolitan Police, specifically the Royal and VIP Executive Committee. The Royal households ('palace') do not decide who does and does not get security.

"Archie is born, and without consultation, he is titled Master. A statement is put out as such, with a brief that H&M wanted it so to protect the baby. Except, they never said any such thing."

Either the mother or father must be present when a birth certificate is produced. If 'someone' told the registrar to write something on the certificate that either parent was unhappy with, they could have declined to sign it. They could have put the registration on hold to seek clarification. Births do not need to be registered until 42 days after the birth. There was plenty of time to discuss how they wanted Archie's title to appear (they could have used Harry's lower title for him).

"At this point H&M realise that it could well be a reality that LPs really could be changed for their DC."

Their DC will be prince/princess according to the current Letters Patent as soon as Prince Charles ascends the throne. Only the monarch can issue LP's and there have been no reports that the Queen is planning to make any changes.
To put it another way - immediately upon the Queen's death, Archie and Lili will become prince/princess. At that point, Charles cannot issue LP's to take those titles away. Only an Act of Parliament can remove a birthright title once it has been granted (the 1917 Title Deprivation Act).

"They ask themselves, what is the point of them being senior working royals and getting the brunt of the criticism, working at a senior level with all the threats, when babies will not even be protected. They could be like the cousins B&E etc. They can go out make a living (does not have to be a 9-5, could be different projects like the Philipps etc.), but they will be there if HMQ needs them for something. Sussex Royal umbrella will take care of the existing charities if need be. They will set up shop on CW country of Canada to make working together easy."

According to this timeline, by this point Harry and Meghan had been upset by the 'skin colour' comment from a family member, were upset that Archie was not going to be a prince and have no security and disagreed with what was written on his birth certificate. Yet they still wanted to remain working for the Queen, albeit on a reduced basis. From their own statement: "The preference of The Duke and Duchess of Sussex was to continue to represent and support Her Majesty The Queen albeit in a more limited capacity, while not drawing on theSovereign Grant."

"PC cuts the funds and security. H asks if the risk has been assessed as lowered. No."

Prince Charles has no power/authority to cut security. This can only be done by the Metropolitan Police (the Royal and VIP Executive Committee). The protection of members of the royal family is based on a threat assessment conducted by the Joint Terrorism Analysis Centre and is based on intelligence, with security given to those who “face a large enough risk”.

When the accounts were published today, it was confirmed the Sussexes no longer received funding from Prince Charles by the end of the first fiscal quarter (some point between April-June 2020).

"They scramble around. Tyler Perry to the rescue - come live at my empty house and security will be provided. (I have to say at this point that PC was likely instructed at this point to cut the funds, don't think he would have just done in personally, with a grandchild this young). Yes, they go. Advice from old friends about a way forward. Netflix, Spotify etc. are concluded."

The Sussexes moved into Tyler Perry's LA home in March 2020. Meghan confirmed this date in the OW interview. Harry added: "The biggest concern was that while we were in Canada, in someone else’s house, I then got told at short notice security was going to be removed."

Omid Scobie has released a statement on Twitter today which says: "Despite some confusing reports, Prince Charles and Prince Harry's timelines for the period the Sussexes' financial support ended are the same. Clarence House says funding continued until last summer (Q1 of the UK's fiscal year is April to June) and Harry told Oprah the same.'

For clarity, what Harry actually said is: "Yeah, in the first half, the first quarter of 2021". (I.e. Harry didn't mean calendar quarter, he obviously meant fiscal quarter!!!)

We now know the move to LA was somewhere between 1 to 3 months before the funding from Prince Charles ended. I don't think that is particularly 'short notice' (it's a standard notice period in England). Omid Scobie has now gone on the record agreeing with the funding timeline and therefore must also agree that the Sussexes were in LA for at least one month (and up to theee months) before the funding ended.

"H&M were hurt that security was taken from baby Archie definitely, and were also hurt by what they saw as racism against him. What parent would not be. They were not whinging and complaining. They had resigned themselves to what took place. There were lots of questions about why they left. I think they just came to recount a certain time and the events that took place."

There seemed to be a significant downshift in public sympathy towards the Sussexes following the Tom Bradby "not many people have asked if I’m ok" interview while on the Africa tour. It was seen as 'whinging and complaining' whilst among some of the poorest human beings on the planet.

Even in spite of all the 'hurt', the Sussexes still wanted to work for the Queen albeit on a limited/part time basis. I doubt the OW interview and subsequent public outpourings would have happened if their request had been granted.

Excellent post.

CrazyCatsAndKittens · 24/06/2021 23:24

I thought part of the reason they moved to the US so suddenly was because they were about to close the border due to Covid. It was either go now or they’d have been stuck in Canada.

SenecaFallsRedux · 24/06/2021 23:31

At that point, Charles cannot issue LP's to take those titles away. Only an Act of Parliament can remove a birthright title once it has been granted (the 1917 Title Deprivation Act).

It's somewhat murky, but I think that Charles can in effect revoke princely titles already in existence with new LPs. Peerages can only be revoked by an act of Parliament. The Title Deprivation Act was not self-executing and required naming of particular individuals who were to lose titles.

But the LPs of 1917 did not name particular individuals but restricted the use of prince/princess and HRH to unnamed individuals but with particular relationship to a sovereign. Its language was aimed at reducing the size of the RF. It did have retroactive effect in that Prince Alastair of Connaught lost his title of Prince because he was the great-grandson of a sovereign (which was allowed before the new LPs), not a grandson, and he thus became the Earl of MacDuff, a subsidiary title of his mother, who was a duchess in her own right.

I think that this difference is related to the notion that princely titles have long been more a matter of custom than of legal right. It wasn't until the nineteenth century that princely titles became regularized in the UK. Prior to that, some children and grandchildren of monarchs were not always called prince or princess, especially females. The grandchildren of Charles I by his son James were called Lady Mary and Lady Anne. They both became Queens regnant.

JustLyra · 24/06/2021 23:55

I'm now wondering about birth certificates and the change in them over the years.

Charles' birth certificate has his name as Charles Philip Arthur George

William's lists his name as His Royal Highness Prince William Philip Arthur Louis

SpindleWhorl · 25/06/2021 06:25

@JustLyra

I'm now wondering about birth certificates and the change in them over the years.

Charles' birth certificate has his name as Charles Philip Arthur George

William's lists his name as His Royal Highness Prince William Philip Arthur Louis

The Mail has just published a (alleged) copy of Lilibet's birth certificate. Apparently birth certs are publicly available in the USA, and TMZ got hold it it.

Harry is down as: first name, the Duke of Sussex; no middle names; surname: His Royal Highness.

Meghan is Rachel Meghan Markle.

Assuming it's real, of course. Seems bloody odd to me.

Roussette · 25/06/2021 07:31

The Mail has just published a (alleged) copy of Lilibet's birth certificate. Apparently birth certs are publicly available in the USA, and TMZ got hold it it

How unpleasant of them, how low will they go? I don't care if it's publicly available or not, it is beyond disgusting that they procure a newly born baby's birth certificate and publish it in their rag.

WinnieTheW0rm · 25/06/2021 07:46

It's pretty normal for Royal birth certificates to be published.

And of course Archie's was.

They are documents of public record, and all have been published, right back to the then Princess Elizabeth (and possibly earlier, I haven't checked).

It was a part of showing the legitimate line, in the early days, and has just carried on. It might be newer in the States, but it's well-established and normal here.

Cacacoisfarraige · 25/06/2021 07:52

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

JustLyra · 25/06/2021 07:52

It’s not unusual for them to be published - most of them are easily found online.

My wondering was about the fact that younger royals now seem to have HRH Prince/Princess on their birth certificate as their name now.

It’s interesting to wonder exactly how easy it is to say “btw half that bit on our birth certificate is no longer your name to use anymore”

Cacacoisfarraige · 25/06/2021 07:56

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Roussette · 25/06/2021 07:56

I've never seen birth certificates of royal babies published before. In the Daily Mail and used as a weapon to discredit the baby's parents.

But I knew without fail posters on here would think it's OK.

JustLyra · 25/06/2021 08:00

@Cacacoisfarraige

Just Lyra

They’re in a different country with different rules.
MM is an American citizen in her home country, she can hardly be styled as a princes of the realm. Harry isn’t a citizen.

You can hardly blame BP

Where was I blaming BP? Or anyone?

My comments were in the context of the discussion about if Princely titles can easily be removed

Not the chat about Lili’s birth certificate that came after

Cacacoisfarraige · 25/06/2021 08:00

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Cacacoisfarraige · 25/06/2021 08:02

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

JustLyra · 25/06/2021 08:02

@Roussette

I've never seen birth certificates of royal babies published before. In the Daily Mail and used as a weapon to discredit the baby's parents. But I knew without fail posters on here would think it's OK.
They’ve all been published

The Cambridge kids were all published, Archie’s was (which is how it was so well known that the registrar made a cock up of Harry’s name) and even back to when William, Harry, Beatrice and Eugenie were born.

Even Charles’ is published and easily viewed online

Birth certificates are public documents. In the UK anyone can order any birth certificate if they want.

AncientandFabulous · 25/06/2021 08:04

They are usually published I think?

For example here is Prince George’s on the BBC website

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/uk-23552087.amp

Cacacoisfarraige · 25/06/2021 08:11

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Roussette · 25/06/2021 08:12

Have you read the article? I feel quite grubby reading a DM article.

It's trying to create division, it's not published as a point of interest which is totally different.

Here...
Meanwhile, the reveal of Lillibet's birth certificate threatens to spark a fresh row, much like the reveal of Archie's certificate following his birth in May 2019

It's ironic that the main theme on a lot of these threads are... I wish they'd shut up, why don't they keep quiet, if only they'd stop bleating etc.

Well... they're not allowed to keep quiet are they, when the likes of the DM is trying to stoke division.
Just leave them alone.

And I'm going to keep saying it... it's no wonder they left.

queenofarles · 25/06/2021 08:30

How unpleasant of them, how low will they go? I don't care if it's publicly available or not, it is beyond disgusting that they procure a newly born baby's birth certificate and publish it

All three Cambridge babies Birth certificates were published on every single newspaper and online,
And it was US site sure who published it first .

Wakeupin2022 · 25/06/2021 08:35

I can't believe i am going to defend the DM here.........

It was an US news outlet who published it.

The DM as a newspaper will of course pick it up - its what they do. Other outlets will too so they will be I'm mo way unique.

The Sussexes court the media and many of their actions are deliberate to keep them 'relevant'.

The 'career' they have chosen is to keep them in the limelight.

They want 'privacy' on their terms. They do not want a normal life.

I do wish the British press would ignore the stories that come out of the US. Not to protect Harry &Meghan who I think are very fame & power crazy, but as soon as the British press start ignoring them, their relevance drops and hopefully they would fade into insecurity.

I don't for one minute think they are lashing out at the Royal family - it's all carefully controlled. There is lots more still to come because that's what will get them airtime and ultimately money.

Roussette · 25/06/2021 08:40

All three Cambridge babies Birth certificates were published on every single newspaper and online

Accompanied with an article slagging the parents off in every which way?

Nah

queenofarles · 25/06/2021 08:45

I’m not sure its genuine, it doesn’t make sense, why is his title the baby’s father name Confused

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