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The royal family

Prince Charles to alter the Letters Patent - Sussex Children won't become Prince/Princess

999 replies

Comeinoutoftherain · 20/06/2021 07:35

Apologies for the Daily Mail reference, but it's all I have so far.

Apparently PC told H&M shortly before the Oprah interview that his intention was to amend the Letters Patent so that only the children in direct line to the throne (aka William's children) would receive the Prince/Princess title.

So neither Archie nor Lilibet were going to be "upgraded" to Prince/Princess on the Queen's death.

That explains that slightly vague comments made in the OW interview about Archie not being made a Prince; and why relations between PC and H&M were clearly very fraught.

If this is true (and I accept it's hard to see the wood for the trees with the constant press briefings from both sides) I can see it from both points of view.

Harry is in Prince Andrew's position (as a royal, not as a person) which makes Archie and Lilibet on a par with Beatrice and Eugenie. As they get older, and William's children start their own families, the Sussex children drop down the pecking order pretty quickly.

I think Charles has it right that the British Public don't want to keep paying for an extended royal family, you can see that playing out in Europe at the moment. So even if H&M were working royals, their children likely won't be; and I can understand why he wants to present a limited number of royals to the public.

From Harry's perspective, it must feel like a downgrade. It must be difficult being the second (and only other) child in a hierarchical monarchy; being aware from the beginning of all that William is to inherit. Having his children lose something that is currently their birthright must sting a bit.

This should probably have been considered before William and Harry had kids. I doubt it would have been as big a deal when you are not considering actual children, just abstract ones. Or at the very least, it should have been done when the Letters Patent were altered for George, Charlotte and Louis.

It's clearly added to an already tense atmosphere and won't help family relations get back on track.

OP posts:
Cacacoisfarraige · 25/06/2021 10:50

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RickiTarr · 25/06/2021 10:52

[quote Cacacoisfarraige]@Mummy194

I am only curious of the mechanics of titles in an official form in a republic.

I’m no expert on titles, but I’ve filled plenty of forms and designed plenty of systems.

How his Prince handled in a drop down box form filling society. That’s my only interest.[/quote]
Yes that’s the new twist. I’d have thought that ethe US wouldn’t have allowed royal titles on official documents, or that if they do, “First name: Harry, Middle Name: HRH, Surname: Duke of Sussex (or simply Sussex)” would have most logically done the job.

Maybe they left forename off altogether because he had so very many, though. Maybe the clerk was unsure. Maybe H&M just weren’t too bothered. Clearly M has decided she is definitely NOT a Mountbatten-Windsor, though.

Roussette · 25/06/2021 10:52

I’m not sure why you’d bother to insist otherwise

I don't think you read my post properly.

"I've never seen birth certificates of royal babies published before. In the Daily Mail and used as a weapon to discredit the baby's parents"

The highlighted bit matters.

RickiTarr · 25/06/2021 10:53

Was there a thread discussing baby August lately, I don't recall, nor do I recall one nitpicking any other royal baby, not even George's one.

Nobody is “nitpicking” a baby. They are vaguely interested in the parents’ form filling choices. Nowhere near as intrusively overinvested as the super fans are.

Roussette · 25/06/2021 10:54

Have you read the article?

It is full of nitpicking

RickiTarr · 25/06/2021 10:56

@Roussette

I’m not sure why you’d bother to insist otherwise

I don't think you read my post properly.

"I've never seen birth certificates of royal babies published before. In the Daily Mail and used as a weapon to discredit the baby's parents"

The highlighted bit matters.

It’s not DM specific. It’s of vague general interest, and “discredit” is a ridiculous word.

Almost any version of H&M’s names is arguably fine, and the choice is ultimately between them and the registering authority.

In what way could the choice possibly discredit them?

RickiTarr · 25/06/2021 10:58

@Roussette

Have you read the article?

It is full of nitpicking

I haven’t. The certificate is on google images.

At the baby? Pp said the certificate was being used to “nitpick a baby”. I found this very hard to believe. Even of the Mail. What aspersions are being cast on the baby?

SnottyLottie · 25/06/2021 10:59

They definitely published the details about one of the Cambridge kids as I remember there being an article about Kate’s job being Princess of United Kingdom and people mocking it.

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2383616/amp/Prince-George-William-Kate-formally-register-birth-Kensington-Palace-mother-puts-Princess-United-Kingdom-occupation.html - Daily Mail mocking occupation on Prince George’s birth certificate

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/uk-23552087.amp A general news article about the name being officially registered

Mummy194 · 25/06/2021 11:06

Did MN have a thread dissecting it?

Also was there one on baby August?

queenofarles · 25/06/2021 11:06

SnottyLottie and charlottes too, remember mocking wills signature as it looked like Willy?

God forbid you question why Harry’s daughter Cert was filled this way though.

JustLyra · 25/06/2021 11:06

Yes that’s the new twist. I’d have thought that ethe US wouldn’t have allowed royal titles on official documents, or that if they do, “First name: Harry, Middle Name: HRH, Surname: Duke of Sussex (or simply Sussex)” would have most logically done the job.

Harry, HRH Duke of Sussex would have been setting themselves up for people pointing out that that’s how they had Meghan listed on Archie’s birth certificate and it had to be changed as it’s technically wrong (as it suggests being a former or divorced duchess).

Part of it probably came down to space - his full name is a long old name!
HRH the Duke of Sussex is instantly identifiable.

JustLyra · 25/06/2021 11:07

Also might depend on what is on Harry’s passport

bluebell34567 · 25/06/2021 11:07

@CrazyCatsAndKittens

I thought part of the reason they moved to the US so suddenly was because they were about to close the border due to Covid. It was either go now or they’d have been stuck in Canada.
thats what H told at OW interview i think.
RickiTarr · 25/06/2021 11:10

@JustLyra

Also might depend on what is on Harry’s passport
Yes I suspect that’s exactly it.

Their legal (passport) names. Hers at is. His maybe truncated a bit and shoehorned into the available spaces.

RickiTarr · 25/06/2021 11:12

@JustLyra

Yes that’s the new twist. I’d have thought that ethe US wouldn’t have allowed royal titles on official documents, or that if they do, “First name: Harry, Middle Name: HRH, Surname: Duke of Sussex (or simply Sussex)” would have most logically done the job.

Harry, HRH Duke of Sussex would have been setting themselves up for people pointing out that that’s how they had Meghan listed on Archie’s birth certificate and it had to be changed as it’s technically wrong (as it suggests being a former or divorced duchess).

Part of it probably came down to space - his full name is a long old name!
HRH the Duke of Sussex is instantly identifiable.

That’s true.

I got carried away and gave him use of his HRH back. Grin

Well as long as they’re happy with it as it is, it’s fine.

SnottyLottie · 25/06/2021 11:12

@Mummy194

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/1818718-The-Duke-and-Duchess-gave-their-occupation-as-prince-and-princess-of-the-United-Kingdom-on-the-birth-certificate-register?msgid=40693577

I’m genuinely not sure about August’s birth certificate but there’s definitely not the same interest in Beatrice and Eugenie as there is in the Kate and Meghan (which is another matter in itself)

Mummy194 · 25/06/2021 11:13

If people are so curious about US vs UK in terms on titled British royals, maybe they could have nitpicked Prince Michael's grandchildren who were born in the US. A similar procedure probably took place.

JustLyra · 25/06/2021 11:15

I got carried away and gave him use of his HRH back. grin

He still technically has it so I bet it’s on official documents

Cacacoisfarraige · 25/06/2021 11:15

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Viviennemary · 25/06/2021 11:15

Seems like whoever completed this certificate is woefully ignorant of the difference between titles and names. If genuine it is totally ridiculous. IMHO.

queenofarles · 25/06/2021 11:16

Prince Albert love child was born in the US too,
Birth certificate is straight forward ,name Albert,
Family Grimaldi.

Cacacoisfarraige · 25/06/2021 11:16

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RickiTarr · 25/06/2021 11:18

@Mummy194

If people are so curious about US vs UK in terms on titled British royals, maybe they could have nitpicked Prince Michael's grandchildren who were born in the US. A similar procedure probably took place.
Several of us probably would have taken a quick look at the birth certificate if anybody had bothered to publish it (not that I like to give Princess Michael and co too much encouragement), purely because it’s always been said that titles aren’t recognised in the States so I’ve always been curious about the minor princes and White Russians etc who washed up there and what their documents looked like.

You really need to drop this strange “nitpicking babies”, “nitpicked grandchildren” phraseology about posters looking at birth registration formats, though. It’s making you sound a bit strange.

Mummy194 · 25/06/2021 11:18

Are Lili and Archie princes now?

Cacacoisfarraige · 25/06/2021 11:19

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