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The royal family

Prince Charles to alter the Letters Patent - Sussex Children won't become Prince/Princess

999 replies

Comeinoutoftherain · 20/06/2021 07:35

Apologies for the Daily Mail reference, but it's all I have so far.

Apparently PC told H&M shortly before the Oprah interview that his intention was to amend the Letters Patent so that only the children in direct line to the throne (aka William's children) would receive the Prince/Princess title.

So neither Archie nor Lilibet were going to be "upgraded" to Prince/Princess on the Queen's death.

That explains that slightly vague comments made in the OW interview about Archie not being made a Prince; and why relations between PC and H&M were clearly very fraught.

If this is true (and I accept it's hard to see the wood for the trees with the constant press briefings from both sides) I can see it from both points of view.

Harry is in Prince Andrew's position (as a royal, not as a person) which makes Archie and Lilibet on a par with Beatrice and Eugenie. As they get older, and William's children start their own families, the Sussex children drop down the pecking order pretty quickly.

I think Charles has it right that the British Public don't want to keep paying for an extended royal family, you can see that playing out in Europe at the moment. So even if H&M were working royals, their children likely won't be; and I can understand why he wants to present a limited number of royals to the public.

From Harry's perspective, it must feel like a downgrade. It must be difficult being the second (and only other) child in a hierarchical monarchy; being aware from the beginning of all that William is to inherit. Having his children lose something that is currently their birthright must sting a bit.

This should probably have been considered before William and Harry had kids. I doubt it would have been as big a deal when you are not considering actual children, just abstract ones. Or at the very least, it should have been done when the Letters Patent were altered for George, Charlotte and Louis.

It's clearly added to an already tense atmosphere and won't help family relations get back on track.

OP posts:
DeRigueurMortis · 22/06/2021 14:53

Ah thank you.

What a weird claim to make if it's not true and conversely a weird thing to deny if it did.

I'm not sure what to make of that if I'm honest.

DeRigueurMortis · 22/06/2021 14:58

@BasiliskStare

I rather like Camilla - & Anne - they seem down to earth people.

Me too.

Anne especially. If asked to choose which royal I'd like to spend the day with it would be her.

I can't help thinking the answer to all this mess is to get Charles, William and Harry in a room with Anne and let her give all of them a piece of her mind and tell them to get their act together pronto Grin.

ajandjjmum · 22/06/2021 15:13

I can't help thinking the answer to all this mess is to get Charles, William and Harry in a room with Anne and let her give all of them a piece of her mind and tell them to get their act together pronto grin.

Great idea!

Allington · 22/06/2021 15:19

Yet sources say it was definitely Anne who made the racist comment... Grin

ajandjjmum · 22/06/2021 15:29

These bloody sources again!

Kokeshi123 · 22/06/2021 15:31

If Archie and Lili become prince and princess upon Charles becoming king, then it supports the narrative that the Sussexes are just talking bollocks. That they are liars and full of shit. Which would be better PR for the Royal family?

Exactly. I'd chuck the two (no doubt absolutely delightful) kids a pair of titles. Can't think of a better way to highlight the fact the H&M keep flip flopping back and forth between wanting and not wanting to be royal.

A pair of titles for the kids. Followed up later by a sweetly phrased remark about how the Windsors are looking forward to welcoming Lili and Archie to the UK on family occasions, and the fact that Harry and Meghan have chosen to follow a path separately from that of being part of the royal family will of course make no difference to the love and care that everyone in the family has for them and their children etc. etc. etc.

RickiTarr · 22/06/2021 15:33

@DeRigueurMortis

Ah thank you.

What a weird claim to make if it's not true and conversely a weird thing to deny if it did.

I'm not sure what to make of that if I'm honest.

I think that’s why it’s so easy to get lost in this whole saga; So many of the contradictory statements just seem pointless things to lie about. It’s quite a masterclass in conflict and deceit, whoever is guilty of what.
JesusMaryAndJosephAndTheWeeDon · 22/06/2021 15:41

@JustLyra

There will be a difference anyway as Catherine will be the Duchess of Cornwall & Cambridge (or the other way round - I’m assuming that way as Cornwall is the senior title) so not exactly the same.

I think with Camilla we’ll get a very quick announcement alongside confirmation of Charles’ regal name very early on.

When Charles becomes King then William and Catherine will become Prince and Princess of Wales.

Prince of Wales is used in preference to Duke of Cornwall normally as it is a more senior title. It was almost never used prior to Charles' second marriage.

It is used now because it was felt the public would not like Camilla being known as Princess of Wales, a title associated with Diana (the previous Princess of Wales was the wife of George V, before he became king, so not in living memory).

JesusMaryAndJosephAndTheWeeDon · 22/06/2021 15:43

Hang on, that's only if Charles creates William Prince of Wales. It isn't automatic 🤦

FinallyHere · 22/06/2021 15:45

Terrible to treat the two brothers differently.

Goodness knows I'm no big fan of the monarchy, but given that is the system in place, how do you suggest the two brothers could be treated equally ?

One is the heir and the other the spare.

That's just how it is. Pretending otherwise is just going to lead to disappointment (cf Margaret, Andrew, Harry)

Camilla still isn't welcome as Queen

I thought of that when I saw the pictures from the cake cutting ceremony at the Eden project. With HM increasingly frail, Camilla was so naturally by her side, alongside DoC, supporting HM

It seems hardly fair to blame PoW and Camilla themselves, rather than the establishment who refused to allow them to marry in the first place

SpindleWhorl · 22/06/2021 15:47

Camilla could be the Princess Bride

Mummy194 · 22/06/2021 15:48

*Sources close to Harry and Meghan said the Queen met Lili over video call.

Sources from the Palace say that didn’t happen*

Hahaha, if we are really going to be honest here, it's the tabloids just slapping together a little something to make some money here.

Even the 'Sussex source' story - like they would talk to the rags.

All the DM did was take what MM said at the Oprah interview about Archie, change her name to a 'source' and then the 'response' from the palace was the Robert Lindsey revised book quote.

Roussette · 22/06/2021 15:49

The establishment did not refuse to allow them to marry.

Charles went off on naval duty, Camilla did not want to wait, because Charles had not told her how he felt... she knew Andrew Parker Bowles and started dating him, and married him instead.

I totally blame them!

DeRigueurMortis · 22/06/2021 15:50

@JesusMaryAndJosephAndTheWeeDon

Hang on, that's only if Charles creates William Prince of Wales. It isn't automatic 🤦

Yes - Charles was in his 20's I believe when he was made PoW.

It wasn't his title from birth even though his mother was Queen.

However things are a bit different now because of the ages of everyone involved. There's no real reason to make W "wait" years and years for the title.

I don't think Charles will make W PoW "straight away" though.

I think he will want to get his investiture done first and "bed in" as King before making William PoW.

DeRigueurMortis · 22/06/2021 15:51

@SpindleWhorl

Camilla could be the Princess Bride

GrinGrinGrin

RickiTarr · 22/06/2021 15:56

@JesusMaryAndJosephAndTheWeeDon

Hang on, that's only if Charles creates William Prince of Wales. It isn't automatic 🤦
It’s enough to send you cross eyed, isn’t it? Smile
WinnieTheW0rm · 22/06/2021 15:56

He was made prince of Wales by LP in 1958, but the formal investiture wasn't until 1969

So 10 for the creation, and 21 for the investiture

RickiTarr · 22/06/2021 16:03

@Roussette

The establishment did not refuse to allow them to marry.

Charles went off on naval duty, Camilla did not want to wait, because Charles had not told her how he felt... she knew Andrew Parker Bowles and started dating him, and married him instead.

I totally blame them!

The bigger issue was he wasn’t free to marry whoever he fell in love with. There were restrictions, which were based on extremely old-fashioned ideas about fornication and blood lines and goodness knows what.

Camilla was ineligible to be a royal bride by the time Charles first met her, because of her supposed “past” (a very hyperbolic term that kept being used).

By the 70s it wasn’t usual to be a virgin on your wedding day. So it was an institutional expectation incompatible with late Twentieth Century dating and there was always a huge risk that he would fall in love with someone who wasn’t a virgin.

The details of who dated who in which order and who broke it off and took the slow boat to China…all of that is beside the point. He knew the restrictions he was confined by. William & Harry have been lucky not to face the same. I do hope they see him little freedom he had comparatively because it’s part of the explanation.

JustLyra · 22/06/2021 16:03

@JesusMaryAndJosephAndTheWeeDon

Hang on, that's only if Charles creates William Prince of Wales. It isn't automatic 🤦
It’s not. So there will at least be a period where William isn’t Prince of Wales so he and Catherine will be D & D of Cornwall and Cambridge.

A lot will depend, imo, if there is an investiture planned for it. If there is then there’s no chance he’ll be created POW before the Coronation, and if there is it’s unlikely they’ll have two expensive events in quick succession so if there is to be an investiture (which there may not be) it’d be over a year, if not two, before he’s POW (I can’t see them making him POW then having a ceremony later because of the complaints about cost).

Puzzledandpissedoff · 22/06/2021 16:13

It seems hardly fair to blame PoW and Camilla themselves, rather than the establishment who refused to allow them to marry in the first place

FWIW I've no doubt the palace would have objected if he'd tried to marry her back in the day, but am not sure it ever came to that. As I recall, Charles faffed around and then went off in the navy, so Camilla married Andrew PB instead - and a fat lot of good it did her since he couldn't keep it in his trousers either

Dismissive statements like 'recollection may vary' regarding such a serious issue like racism is incredibly arrogant and disrespectful

In theory, yes it can be; however faced with scattergun accusations it might have seen the safer approach, at least until further details can be requested

No doubt a bit of self-flagellation from the place would have suited some, but however much I detest the RF I'm not sure an instant rolling-over's called for in response to a couple whose claims have sometimes been shown to be less than accurate

SenecaFallsRedux · 22/06/2021 16:14

Yes - Charles was in his 20's I believe when he was made PoW

Charles was nine when made POW, 20 when he was invested.

DeRigueurMortis · 22/06/2021 16:20

@Roussette

The establishment did not refuse to allow them to marry.

Charles went off on naval duty, Camilla did not want to wait, because Charles had not told her how he felt... she knew Andrew Parker Bowles and started dating him, and married him instead.

I totally blame them!

I think that's a bit of a simplification Rou.

Camilla and APB had been in an on/off relationship (largely because he was a serial shagger) before she met Charles in an "off" phase.

I think most sources agree that whilst he loved her he wasn't yet ready to commit but in addition to that he had been told C whilst a suitable girlfriend wasn't wife material - simply because she had a "history" (with APB) and wasn't an aristocrat.

So he went on tour and in the absence of any commitment and being under the impression that she and Charles would never be allowed to marry anyway (and thinking wedlock might ensure APB kept his pants on - spoiler it didn't) got married.

Charles was apparently blindsided by this and still under pressure to marry finally "gave in" when Diana came on the scene because he knew he'd never marry Camilla (if she was unsuitable before, as a divorcee doubly so).

As per my pp a total car crash of outdated concepts and meddling - which you'd think the RF should have learned not to do re: Margaret.

FWIW I think if C&C had remained resolute it's possible they could have married.

If the choice was Charles to remain unmarried and without an heir or for the RF to accept Camilla I think they would have caved eventually - but maybe I'm very naive in that regard.

As was we had Charles under huge pressure to marry (with all the women his age not deemed suitable, especially the one he loved) and Diana, young and naive and in love with the idea of marrying a Prince.

The fact they had absolutely nothing in common (age, interests, temperament, outlook etc) appeared secondary to the fact she was as a beautiful virginial aristocratic woman - a "suitable" bride and that ticked the boxes for both the RF (especially the QM and Lord Mountbatten who were apparently very much pushing Charles to wed and had quite old fashioned ideas in the sense they didn't think love mattered) and Spencer family (happy to their profile raised by Diana marrying a man she'd met 6 times before getting engaged).

RickiTarr · 22/06/2021 16:30

FWIW I think if C&C had remained resolute it's possible they could have married.

If the choice was Charles to remain unmarried and without an heir or for the RF to accept Camilla I think they would have caved eventually - but maybe I'm very naive in that regard.

I think you’re right. The obvious comparator was Wallis Simpson. Camilla Shand was in no way as problematic a match as WS, or Captain Townsend for that matter. If Charles had been decisive and dig his heels in like Edward VIII did, he could have won out.

The problem is that he didn’t have that type of personality and he was up against two institutions with a very large turning circle (Monarchy and CofE). I think it had especially been drummed into the whole family that the abdication crisis must never been repeated, which didn’t help.

Puzzledandpissedoff · 22/06/2021 16:32

Yet again an excellent summary, DeRigeurMortis; however the thing that usually goes unmentioned is whether things would have turned out much differently if he had married Camilla in the first place

I guess the difference is that Camilla might have kept schtum about any affairs he went in for and Diana definitely didn't, but I wouldn't want to assume that his love for Camilla was so great that he'd never have had any

WinnieTheW0rm · 22/06/2021 16:34

Andrew P-B also dating Princess Anne possibly complicated things too

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