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The royal family

Prince Charles to alter the Letters Patent - Sussex Children won't become Prince/Princess

999 replies

Comeinoutoftherain · 20/06/2021 07:35

Apologies for the Daily Mail reference, but it's all I have so far.

Apparently PC told H&M shortly before the Oprah interview that his intention was to amend the Letters Patent so that only the children in direct line to the throne (aka William's children) would receive the Prince/Princess title.

So neither Archie nor Lilibet were going to be "upgraded" to Prince/Princess on the Queen's death.

That explains that slightly vague comments made in the OW interview about Archie not being made a Prince; and why relations between PC and H&M were clearly very fraught.

If this is true (and I accept it's hard to see the wood for the trees with the constant press briefings from both sides) I can see it from both points of view.

Harry is in Prince Andrew's position (as a royal, not as a person) which makes Archie and Lilibet on a par with Beatrice and Eugenie. As they get older, and William's children start their own families, the Sussex children drop down the pecking order pretty quickly.

I think Charles has it right that the British Public don't want to keep paying for an extended royal family, you can see that playing out in Europe at the moment. So even if H&M were working royals, their children likely won't be; and I can understand why he wants to present a limited number of royals to the public.

From Harry's perspective, it must feel like a downgrade. It must be difficult being the second (and only other) child in a hierarchical monarchy; being aware from the beginning of all that William is to inherit. Having his children lose something that is currently their birthright must sting a bit.

This should probably have been considered before William and Harry had kids. I doubt it would have been as big a deal when you are not considering actual children, just abstract ones. Or at the very least, it should have been done when the Letters Patent were altered for George, Charlotte and Louis.

It's clearly added to an already tense atmosphere and won't help family relations get back on track.

OP posts:
RickiTarr · 22/06/2021 16:36

I guess the difference is that Camilla might have kept schtum about any affairs he went in for and Diana definitely didn't,

She showed huge forbearance about her first husband’s adultery. Maybe I shouldn’t say this but I also find her support of the refuge movement telling, as well as hugely welcome.

I wouldn't want to assume that his love for Camilla was so great that he'd never have had any

He doesn’t strike me as a “natural adulterer”, by which I mean an APB type. I think both Diana and Charles looked elsewhere because they were incompatible and thoroughly miserable.

DeRigueurMortis · 22/06/2021 16:39

@Puzzledandpissedoff

Yet again an excellent summary, DeRigeurMortis; however the thing that usually goes unmentioned is whether things would have turned out much differently if he had married Camilla in the first place

I guess the difference is that Camilla might have kept schtum about any affairs he went in for and Diana definitely didn't, but I wouldn't want to assume that his love for Camilla was so great that he'd never have had any

I think that's fair.

As for Camilla her marriage to APB lasted for many years despite him being a gold medal winning adulterous bugger.

So yes I think she'd have turned a blind eye if I'm honest - but tbh I'm not sure Charles would have strayed but who knows....

StayCalmX · 22/06/2021 16:41

Yeh i was young when i was team Diana! She was used terribly,but 40 years on, i like camilla now.

Roussette · 22/06/2021 16:42

DeRigeur

I agree with this...
"I think most sources agree that whilst he loved her he wasn't yet ready to commit but in addition to that he had been told C whilst a suitable girlfriend wasn't wife material - simply because she had a "history" (with APB) and wasn't an aristocrat"

I think he faffed.
I imagine he is a real faffer.
And I don't think he even tried to test the water with the Queen as to whether he could marry her...
No wonder she got fed up and went off and married Andrew.

I do think it showed him as weak. (Just my opinion)
He just wasn't prepared to fight for the woman he loved.

I have to say... because he was getting on a bit (although he wasn't really, but I do remember the time and how the press was all over anyone he met that had a vagina) if I was Diana I would be put off that he'd been dating my sister! She was young and it was all fairytale and all of that... but it was almost like anyone with the right pedigree will do, whether he loves them or not.

StayCalmX · 22/06/2021 16:44

Yeh, doubt he even ran it past the queen

diddl · 22/06/2021 16:48

"FWIW I think if C&C had remained resolute it's possible they could have married."

I'm not sure that she wanted to marry him though-I think she was determined to get APB.

The whole thing with C&D was very sad.

I think that as well as being incompatible perhaps just expected/needed too much from the other?

AncientandFabulous · 22/06/2021 16:51

Channel 5 have a documentary available for download about “Charles & the women who could have” - will watch later.

DeRigueurMortis · 22/06/2021 16:51

I think he faffed

I think that's probably fair to say.

It's certainly been said by many sources that he was deeply shocked and upset by Camilla's marriage.

That implies he thought she'd wait for him.

That said I think it's hard to understand the pressure he was under to marry the right person.

Pressure from the family, public, church etc - it must have been overwhelming especially having been brought up and had "doing your duty - even at personal sacrifice" has been drummed into you along with the "look what happened to your Uncle" diatribe.

I've got quite a lot of sympathy for him in that regard if I'm honest and credit to him he's absolutely not repeated the same mistakes with his sons.

Andylion · 22/06/2021 16:54

Harry will have grown up seeing his cousins treated differently to him and William, both in terms of titles/rank but also informal things and public interest etc. For example the jubilee balcony thing with just the queen, C&C, W&K, and Harry. The cousins (Peter, Zara etc) weren’t invited to that. It’s clear that Harry’s children were going to be the cousins in any future situation. He can’t possibly have expected, given the way the system works, for his children to be the same as George, Charlotte and Louis.

That's an excellent point. He grew up with the disparity but probably didn't think about it as it must have seemed natural at the time.

Roussette · 22/06/2021 16:54

Yes. And being eldest son. The two other boys could find the right person at their leisure, although that didn't work for Andrew of course.

JustLyra · 22/06/2021 16:55

I don’t think Camilla had any interest in marrying Charles back in the day.

I think she was a bit like Chelsy Davy - she loved the guy but had zero interest in taking on the madness of that world.

Gladimnotcampinginthisweather · 22/06/2021 17:04

JustLyra I seem to remember that she allowed 'sources' to say she had no interest in being Queen, although that was some time ago.

JesusMaryAndJosephAndTheWeeDon · 22/06/2021 17:04

I suspect that whether or not they plan to have an investiture for William and how quickly they grant the title may well depend upon how old Charles is and how healthy he is when he becomes King.

They won't want a succession of expensive events close together so if Charles is not likely to be King for long they won't want an investiture ceremony. On the other hand it could be a useful positive PR opportunity for the Royals, and raises William's profile if Charles is unpopular.

An investiture ceremony isn't essential, indeed it is fairly unusual, there hadn't been one for ages when Charles was invested, it was basically a publicity stunt.

I think they will want William and Catherine to use the Prince and Princess of Wales titles as it will be a distancing from the association with Diana and could even be a way of testing the waters before deciding for sure what title Camilla uses and/or a way of avoiding having confusion about the title Duchess of Cornwall.

Viviennemary · 22/06/2021 17:05

There was certainly disapproval of Camilla as a royal bride. She wasn't considered suitable. It's said she was madly in love with APB who had lots of girlfriends. She was fed up with Charles dithering and then when he was sent away she could see it going nowhere. Then she inherited half a million pounds and got married to APB. We'll never know but that sounds plausible to me.

diddl · 22/06/2021 17:05

Also re Margaret & Peter Townsend-I'm sure that they could have married if they'd wanted to.

Presumably what they couldn't have done is Royal Duties & handouts from the civil list(?)

When it's said that those up to the 6th(?) in line need the Monarch's permission-what does that really mean?

If 2 adults are legally qualified to marry, can the monarch prevent it?

JustLyra · 22/06/2021 17:17

@diddl

Also re Margaret & Peter Townsend-I'm sure that they could have married if they'd wanted to.

Presumably what they couldn't have done is Royal Duties & handouts from the civil list(?)

When it's said that those up to the 6th(?) in line need the Monarch's permission-what does that really mean?

If 2 adults are legally qualified to marry, can the monarch prevent it?

Margaret could have married Peter Townsend. She’d have had to become Mrs Townsend, live abroad and not be on the civil list any longer. So she chose against it.

If they marry without permission then they forfeit their place in the line of succession, and any descendants of their marriage are not in the line. Their marriage is still legally valid.

StayCalmX · 22/06/2021 17:30

There was a big age gap beteeen p townsend and margaret, and yet his next gf after margaret was even younger. I thought that made him seem a bit of a predator

Puzzledandpissedoff · 22/06/2021 18:12

I suspect that whether or not they plan to have an investiture for William and how quickly they grant the title may well depend upon how old Charles is and how healthy he is when he becomes King
They won't want a succession of expensive events close together so if Charles is not likely to be King for long they won't want an investiture ceremony. On the other hand it could be a useful positive PR opportunity for the Royals, and raises William's profile if Charles is unpopular

Interesting point; I hadn't thought about it from the expense angle - though I'm not sure how much that would worry them since they're not the ones doing the paying, and it's not as if Charles is noted for his personal restraint around money

Also not sure if Charles would welcome William's profile being raised if he himself was unpopular. Given his widely reported self-pitying diatribes I can't quite imagine that happening, but time will tell

Serenster · 22/06/2021 18:15

Papers released in the last 15 years clearly show that the deal that Anthony Eden hammered out with the government, with the Queen’s support, was that the only thing Princess Margaret would have to have given up to marry Peter Townsend was her and any children’s place in the succession. Given her sister already had a son and a daughter by this point, this wasn’t a big ask. So it’s clear that Margaret didn’t marry him not because of what she’d lose, but because she didn’t want to. And possibly just as well - I agree his history of relationships with young women doesn’t look great these days.

Serenster · 22/06/2021 18:21

@Mummy194

*Sources close to Harry and Meghan said the Queen met Lili over video call.

Sources from the Palace say that didn’t happen*

Hahaha, if we are really going to be honest here, it's the tabloids just slapping together a little something to make some money here.

Even the 'Sussex source' story - like they would talk to the rags.

All the DM did was take what MM said at the Oprah interview about Archie, change her name to a 'source' and then the 'response' from the palace was the Robert Lindsey revised book quote.

Actually, the course for the “sources close to Harry and Meghan” was People magazine in the US - i.e. they published something they were given by a PR representative (that is their stock in trade).

“Sources from the Palace” spoke to the BBC directly. So, being honest, tabloids had nothing to so with this.

ajandjjmum · 22/06/2021 18:35

So it's likely that Princess Margaret 'saw the light' during the time that she and Peter Townsend were apart, but not wanting to admit that, chose the 'I'll do my duty' route, although the sacrifices she would have had to make to marry him were minimal.

I understood that APB was playing around with Anne, so Camilla went for Charles to make him jealous. Charles was more keen on her than she him, at that time. They look very happy together now, and I'm another who has warmed towards her despite the Diana years.

upinaballoon · 22/06/2021 18:39

@Serenster

Papers released in the last 15 years clearly show that the deal that Anthony Eden hammered out with the government, with the Queen’s support, was that the only thing Princess Margaret would have to have given up to marry Peter Townsend was her and any children’s place in the succession. Given her sister already had a son and a daughter by this point, this wasn’t a big ask. So it’s clear that Margaret didn’t marry him not because of what she’d lose, but because she didn’t want to. And possibly just as well - I agree his history of relationships with young women doesn’t look great these days.
......and she married the attractive "commoner" who took photographs, instead.
Puzzledandpissedoff · 22/06/2021 18:58

There was a big age gap beteeen p townsend and margaret, and yet his next gf after margaret was even younger. I thought that made him seem a bit of a predator

25 years apparently Hmm But then it seemed to run in the family; I just checked it out and his own father was 20 years older than his mum

BTW it was said that Townsend's second wife looked like Margaret, but I hadn't realised just how much

Prince Charles to alter the Letters Patent - Sussex Children won't become Prince/Princess
DeRigueurMortis · 22/06/2021 19:18

[quote Puzzledandpissedoff]There was a big age gap beteeen p townsend and margaret, and yet his next gf after margaret was even younger. I thought that made him seem a bit of a predator

25 years apparently Hmm But then it seemed to run in the family; I just checked it out and his own father was 20 years older than his mum

BTW it was said that Townsend's second wife looked like Margaret, but I hadn't realised just how much

Serenster · 22/06/2021 19:25

@Puzzledandpissedoff their daughter, Isabelle Townsend, was a well-known model

Prince Charles to alter the Letters Patent - Sussex Children won't become Prince/Princess
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