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The royal family

Prince Charles to alter the Letters Patent - Sussex Children won't become Prince/Princess

999 replies

Comeinoutoftherain · 20/06/2021 07:35

Apologies for the Daily Mail reference, but it's all I have so far.

Apparently PC told H&M shortly before the Oprah interview that his intention was to amend the Letters Patent so that only the children in direct line to the throne (aka William's children) would receive the Prince/Princess title.

So neither Archie nor Lilibet were going to be "upgraded" to Prince/Princess on the Queen's death.

That explains that slightly vague comments made in the OW interview about Archie not being made a Prince; and why relations between PC and H&M were clearly very fraught.

If this is true (and I accept it's hard to see the wood for the trees with the constant press briefings from both sides) I can see it from both points of view.

Harry is in Prince Andrew's position (as a royal, not as a person) which makes Archie and Lilibet on a par with Beatrice and Eugenie. As they get older, and William's children start their own families, the Sussex children drop down the pecking order pretty quickly.

I think Charles has it right that the British Public don't want to keep paying for an extended royal family, you can see that playing out in Europe at the moment. So even if H&M were working royals, their children likely won't be; and I can understand why he wants to present a limited number of royals to the public.

From Harry's perspective, it must feel like a downgrade. It must be difficult being the second (and only other) child in a hierarchical monarchy; being aware from the beginning of all that William is to inherit. Having his children lose something that is currently their birthright must sting a bit.

This should probably have been considered before William and Harry had kids. I doubt it would have been as big a deal when you are not considering actual children, just abstract ones. Or at the very least, it should have been done when the Letters Patent were altered for George, Charlotte and Louis.

It's clearly added to an already tense atmosphere and won't help family relations get back on track.

OP posts:
RickiTarr · 22/06/2021 13:44

@CrazyCatsAndKittens

It’s not unusual for celebs to register multiple websites before a child’s birth to throw people off the scent. It’s not like it’s expensive.
Which is why I assumed the story must be more than that to be splashed around, I think.

Really odd.

Allington · 22/06/2021 13:44

Well apart from anything else, H&M's recollections vary from each other's in the timing of the supposed question about the colour of the baby's skin was raised Grin

RickiTarr · 22/06/2021 13:47

@Mummy194

Why put 'recollections may vary' on a case they are about to investigate?

They have absolutely no idea what the conclusion of it will be !

Exactly. It’s just old fashioned grammar. She’s saying “(at the moment) memories/accounts of what happened vary” and she is going out of her way NOT to preempt the conclusion of whatever the private process of sorting it out was.

“This is a serious accusation. You’re all telling me different memories of what happened. Let’s look into it.”

smilesy · 22/06/2021 13:48

I think the slightly odd thing about the domain registrations is that they were done on different dates. “LilibetDiana” was only registered on the day she was born, although “Lilidiana” was registered in May. It sounds like they had already decided to call her “Lili”. It appears ) although of course we don’t know for certain) that they only registered “Lilibet” after they had told the Queen, implying that they indeed received no objection from the Queen once she was told what they wanted to call the baby, but also that they did not consult with HMQ previously. Otherwise they would have registered the domain name at the same time as the other one.

Mummy194 · 22/06/2021 13:49

@Allington

Well apart from anything else, H&M's recollections vary from each other's in the timing of the supposed question about the colour of the baby's skin was raised Grin
Considering it's a rather emotive subject, I guess it hits people at different levels. It seems there were several conversations, maybe one in particular hit H with significance - maybe it was the first. It seems for one of them, he was gobsmacked.
MagicSummer · 22/06/2021 13:50

[quote ajandjjmum]@MagicSummer
My understanding is the the Cornwall title is passed to William automatically, but the new King would have to appoint him Prince of Wales. Maybe that's the plan from California - the Prince of Wales title will go to Harry and Meghan will become the new Princess of Wales! William can just hang around as 'King in waiting'.[/quote]
Oh OK - that's interesting, although I have just read that only the heir apparent can be made Prince of Wales, so guess that takes H&M out of the equation!!

Skiptheheartsandflowers · 22/06/2021 13:53

I can see why you'd register more than one domain if you have a shortlist of names. It's not like they can't afford it. What seems most likely to me was that they told, rather than asked, the queen about the name - I would guess that they said they wanted to use Lilibet and it would be a lovely tribute to her, and the queen didn't say outright 'actually I'm uncomfortable with that' so they ended the call thinking 'permission granted!' Full steam ahead.

I didn't think William became Duke of Cornwall on the queen's death either. Charles will still be alive! Bet something is said pretty quickly about Camilla being queen consort after all, though.

Mummy194 · 22/06/2021 13:54

What I don't get, are these courtiers in the room when personal zoom phone calls are made? If anyone has a phone call HMQ are they there to witness it all?

Because if it's HMQ who instructed her staff to go and brief the BBC that she had not given 'permission' on the name, it sounds incredibly petty of gran gran to that.

Wanttocry · 22/06/2021 13:55

@Oldbutstillgotit

Allington

You have put it so much better than me !

And me!
Skiptheheartsandflowers · 22/06/2021 13:57

@Mummy194

Why put 'recollections may vary' on a case they are about to investigate?

They have absolutely no idea what the conclusion of it will be !

I do not think that word means what you think it means
RickiTarr · 22/06/2021 13:59

@Mummy194

What I don't get, are these courtiers in the room when personal zoom phone calls are made? If anyone has a phone call HMQ are they there to witness it all?

Because if it's HMQ who instructed her staff to go and brief the BBC that she had not given 'permission' on the name, it sounds incredibly petty of gran gran to that.

It’s really sad, but I wouldn’t be surprised if all of them now record their private calls, and/or have close staff present. Especially since the accusations.

The line between what’s personal and what’s public business seems very blurry anyway.

JustLyra · 22/06/2021 13:59

@DeRigueurMortis

As the eldest son of the monarch and heir apparent William would automatically be Duke of Cornwall.

@JustLyra

So that would imply that Catherine automatically becomes Duchess of Cornwall?

So they must have already decided how to style Camilla then presumably as when Charles becomes King she will lose her current title.

I know technically she will be Queen (and personally I have no issue with that) but Queen or Princess Consort that will have to be announced pretty quickly - something I'd not thought about before...

Yes. Catherine becomes Duchess of Cornwall the second William becomes the duke.

Camilla will be Queen and the assorted titles that come with that. The question of how they’ll style her will be sorted beforehand I think.

JustLyra · 22/06/2021 14:02

I thought that the title of Prince of Wales, Duke of Cornwall, etc. had to be bestowed on the sovereign's son, it isn't something which automatically happens. Charles was created Prince of Wales in 1958 and was formally invested in 1969 at a ceremony at Caernarvon Castle.

The Prince of Wales title has to be conferred.

The Duke of Cornwall goes automatically to be heir apparent who is also the eldest son of the monarch.

So assuming all goes as planned William automatically becomes Duke of Cornwall and can be made Prince of Wales by his father.

If something happened to change the line - for example if Charles pre-deceased the Queen, or William pre-deceased Charles, then the heir apparent can be made Prince of Wales, but cannot be the Duke of Cornwall as they wouldn’t be the monarch’s eldest son.

Skiptheheartsandflowers · 22/06/2021 14:17

@JustLyra

I thought that the title of Prince of Wales, Duke of Cornwall, etc. had to be bestowed on the sovereign's son, it isn't something which automatically happens. Charles was created Prince of Wales in 1958 and was formally invested in 1969 at a ceremony at Caernarvon Castle.

The Prince of Wales title has to be conferred.

The Duke of Cornwall goes automatically to be heir apparent who is also the eldest son of the monarch.

So assuming all goes as planned William automatically becomes Duke of Cornwall and can be made Prince of Wales by his father.

If something happened to change the line - for example if Charles pre-deceased the Queen, or William pre-deceased Charles, then the heir apparent can be made Prince of Wales, but cannot be the Duke of Cornwall as they wouldn’t be the monarch’s eldest son.

I stand corrected on the Duke of Cornwall title. Wikipedia says the eldest son of the reigning monarch inherits it when their parent takes the throne. So William will get it automatically.

Agree @JustLyra that how Camilla will be addressed will already have been decided.

WinnieTheW0rm · 22/06/2021 14:20

So they must have already decided how to style Camilla then presumably as when Charles becomes King she will lose her current title

Aside from King, which is proclaimed immediately (never a gap between archs), other titles which have technically changed may not change in usage until after the funeral.

So I doubt Prince William will start using Cornwall until then

But that leave the issue of what to call the current Duchess, and the plan must be settled in advance, because every world leader will be sending condolences and will need/want to know how to address the recipients. With the other Dukes and Duchesses, even if they are poised to take on a new title in the case of the Cambridges, they can still correctly be addressed by their current ones.

There will need to be a same day announcement?

BasiliskStare · 22/06/2021 14:24

Honestly - if you are entitled to titles - through being given them by no exercise of your own - just by birth - don't complain if taken away

I actually wish H & M could have taken the lovely house they were given and H could have done some of the the things he was good at - e.g. invictus games - M obviously has things she is passionate about. But to complain you are opting out of the RF & ( at age 36 ) your father did not pay for you when you were aiming for £0000000000 of money for telling your RF story - Ach well - can't be bothered with them I think they are clinging on to any RF title etc because it gets them money / contracts - It will be interesting to see how long it lasts - but I cannot help but wish a relatively young family well.

I agree with others - it's how the RF works. W is next in line ( well in the queue ) Hard for harry but he could have done so many good things. As could Meghan . If they want to go off and earn a fortune - good luck to them but try not to embarrass the RF . It is possible I will long enough to see how this plays out.

JustLyra · 22/06/2021 14:26

There will be a difference anyway as Catherine will be the Duchess of Cornwall & Cambridge (or the other way round - I’m assuming that way as Cornwall is the senior title) so not exactly the same.

I think with Camilla we’ll get a very quick announcement alongside confirmation of Charles’ regal name very early on.

DeRigueurMortis · 22/06/2021 14:29

There will need to be a same day announcement?

That's the bit I don't really understand.

A lot of things will happen automatically but the one unknown (publicly at least) is Camilla's title.

Initially on PC's website the intention for her to be styled as Princess Consort was stated. However, that was removed quite a few years ago which would suggest that's no longer a given.

My bet is that she will be Queen and Charles will announce that pretty quickly.

JustLyra · 22/06/2021 14:32

It’s only a year since Clarence House confirmed the plan was still for Camilla to be Princess Consort.

So unless Charles’ popularity surges massively I think that’s unlikely to change.

DeRigueurMortis · 22/06/2021 14:38

@JustLyra

It’s only a year since Clarence House confirmed the plan was still for Camilla to be Princess Consort.

So unless Charles’ popularity surges massively I think that’s unlikely to change.

Ah I didn't know that.

Interesting- thanks!

DeRigueurMortis · 22/06/2021 14:39

Btw what's the story with this zoom call that did/didn't happen?

I missed that...

BasiliskStare · 22/06/2021 14:43

I rather like Camilla - & Anne - they seem down to earth people.

JustLyra · 22/06/2021 14:48

@DeRigueurMortis

Btw what's the story with this zoom call that did/didn't happen?

I missed that...

Sources close to Harry and Meghan said the Queen met Lili over video call.

Sources from the Palace say that didn’t happen

smilesy · 22/06/2021 14:50

@DeRigueurMortis. I’m assuming it refers to the did they/ didn’t they introduce Lili to the Queen in a zoom call. They say they did but a palace source says it didn’t happen 🤷‍♀️

Samcro · 22/06/2021 14:52

@Mummy194

Dismissive statements like 'recollection may vary' regarding such a serious issue like racism is incredibly arrogant and disrespectful. More especially for an organisation that heads the commonwealth.
so agree