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The royal family

Prince Charles to alter the Letters Patent - Sussex Children won't become Prince/Princess

999 replies

Comeinoutoftherain · 20/06/2021 07:35

Apologies for the Daily Mail reference, but it's all I have so far.

Apparently PC told H&M shortly before the Oprah interview that his intention was to amend the Letters Patent so that only the children in direct line to the throne (aka William's children) would receive the Prince/Princess title.

So neither Archie nor Lilibet were going to be "upgraded" to Prince/Princess on the Queen's death.

That explains that slightly vague comments made in the OW interview about Archie not being made a Prince; and why relations between PC and H&M were clearly very fraught.

If this is true (and I accept it's hard to see the wood for the trees with the constant press briefings from both sides) I can see it from both points of view.

Harry is in Prince Andrew's position (as a royal, not as a person) which makes Archie and Lilibet on a par with Beatrice and Eugenie. As they get older, and William's children start their own families, the Sussex children drop down the pecking order pretty quickly.

I think Charles has it right that the British Public don't want to keep paying for an extended royal family, you can see that playing out in Europe at the moment. So even if H&M were working royals, their children likely won't be; and I can understand why he wants to present a limited number of royals to the public.

From Harry's perspective, it must feel like a downgrade. It must be difficult being the second (and only other) child in a hierarchical monarchy; being aware from the beginning of all that William is to inherit. Having his children lose something that is currently their birthright must sting a bit.

This should probably have been considered before William and Harry had kids. I doubt it would have been as big a deal when you are not considering actual children, just abstract ones. Or at the very least, it should have been done when the Letters Patent were altered for George, Charlotte and Louis.

It's clearly added to an already tense atmosphere and won't help family relations get back on track.

OP posts:
Mummy194 · 22/06/2021 13:05

@RickiTarr

I do love the Queen (or her office) for coining the term “mistruths”, though. Grin
According to Robert Lacey, the palace 'coins' a lot of names. Like calling MM ' narcissist', 'sociopath'. among others which stuck.

Absolutely disgusting !

Mummy194 · 22/06/2021 13:07

Dismissive statements like 'recollection may vary' regarding such a serious issue like racism is incredibly arrogant and disrespectful. More especially for an organisation that heads the commonwealth.

Allington · 22/06/2021 13:12

I disagree - far better than joining in on a public tit for tat mudslinging exercise.

Let's face it, the accusations were all implied but never quite stated, and very difficult to be proved one way or another.

DeRigueurMortis · 22/06/2021 13:13

It’s just that the timing of the registration proves they didn’t ask the Queen for permission to use the name at all. Possibly

No it doesn't.

I speculated on the other thread that they could have registered multiple domain names as "back up" choices before speaking to HMQ and it's now being reported they did indeed do that even by the Mail.

In this case I'd say it strengthens their case that HMQ did give her approval because they had already planned other alternatives if that wasn't forthcoming.

CrazyCatsAndKittens · 22/06/2021 13:13

I do think it’s interesting that the RF have decided to fight back against the untruths, for example the video call with the Queen not having happened.

ajandjjmum · 22/06/2021 13:16

I don't see 'recollections may vary' as dismissive - I see it as a very polite way of saying 'you're telling lies'.

Throwing the accusation of 'racism' at everything you don't agree with, purely dilutes the seriousness imo.

Mummy194 · 22/06/2021 13:20

@Allington

I disagree - far better than joining in on a public tit for tat mudslinging exercise.

Let's face it, the accusations were all implied but never quite stated, and very difficult to be proved one way or another.

No need for a tit for tat.

These are serious accusation which need a proper investigation. So you open up one - a bit like they did with the MM bullying claims (which were also never quite stated, considering the 'victims' never actually made any formal complaints)

I think most people would have appreciated a 'we take this very seriously as an anti racist institution, and an independent inquiry will be opened'. Rather than a mocking and ridiculing 'recollection may vary'.

Maybe they thought it was clever.
Imagine your say grown up daughter tells you about an abuse from an uncle / family friend. You ask said uncle and they deny everything. Do you just say, well there 'recollections may vary'.

RickiTarr · 22/06/2021 13:20

@Mummy194

Dismissive statements like 'recollection may vary' regarding such a serious issue like racism is incredibly arrogant and disrespectful. More especially for an organisation that heads the commonwealth.
No I didn’t think that was dismissive. It was the opposite. It was trying to stay above the fighting and be diplomatic and conciliatory.

The Queen tried really hard to hang on to the neutral position amongst all the squabbling. That’s also why I find it sort of poignant and sweet that even now that Harry has tipped over into saying things that just aren’t correct, his gran’s corner have invented a whole new word to avoid saying he is fibbing.

The big question is how you stop people falling out and fighting, though, and nobody has solved that one yet.

Angrycat2768 · 22/06/2021 13:21

I agree that a lot of this drama is because the Royals dont work as a 'normal' family would. They dont communicate normally with each other, they do it through their households and actively brief against other members of the family, whether with or without their knowledge through staff leaking to the press. I knew about Charles wanting to slim down the monarchy. It was a massive plus in his favour in my eyes. I suspect Harry didnt tell Meghan. I also suspect Harry was under the impression that his family were all victims- trapped by duty, trapped by the press, trapped by courtiers. What he is rapidly finding out is that they are complicit in all this, because they want to stay on the Throne. They are not trapped in anything at all, they were the ones throwing him under the bus to protect William and they are the ones who will do whatever it takes to preserve the Minarchy for as long as they possibly can. Part of that is cutting them down to size from the bloated mass they are now.The Queen should have done it well before the Great grandchildren were born. Now Charles is left with a mess.

Mummy194 · 22/06/2021 13:22

I don't believe that people of colour go around throwing racism. It's a traumatic experience, surely.

DeRigueurMortis · 22/06/2021 13:23

As the eldest son of the monarch and heir apparent William would automatically be Duke of Cornwall.

@JustLyra

So that would imply that Catherine automatically becomes Duchess of Cornwall?

So they must have already decided how to style Camilla then presumably as when Charles becomes King she will lose her current title.

I know technically she will be Queen (and personally I have no issue with that) but Queen or Princess Consort that will have to be announced pretty quickly - something I'd not thought about before...

RickiTarr · 22/06/2021 13:24

@DeRigueurMortis

It’s just that the timing of the registration proves they didn’t ask the Queen for permission to use the name at all. Possibly

No it doesn't.

I speculated on the other thread that they could have registered multiple domain names as "back up" choices before speaking to HMQ and it's now being reported they did indeed do that even by the Mail.

In this case I'd say it strengthens their case that HMQ did give her approval because they had already planned other alternatives if that wasn't forthcoming.

Argh. I’m getting confused now.

I thought part of the story was that that was the only domain they reserved?

ajandjjmum · 22/06/2021 13:25

So 'recollections may vary' is now not only dismissive, but mocking and ridiculing?! I see it as polite way of saying you disagree.

To then compare it with disbelieving someone who has suffered from abuse within their family is sick.

Mummy194 · 22/06/2021 13:26

Racism IS abuse !

ajandjjmum · 22/06/2021 13:30

Racism was neither mentioned nor implied when you wrote 'Imagine your say grown up daughter tells you about an abuse from an uncle / family friend. You ask said uncle and they deny everything. Do you just say, well there 'recollections may vary'.'

You are now conflating racism and abuse because it suits your narrative.

RickiTarr · 22/06/2021 13:30

No need for a tit for tat.

These are serious accusation which need a proper investigation. So you open up one - a bit like they did with the MM bullying claims (which were also never quite stated, considering the 'victims' never actually made any formal complaints)

I think most people would have appreciated a 'we take this very seriously as an anti racist institution, and an independent inquiry will be opened'. Rather than a mocking and ridiculing 'recollection may vary'.

Maybe they thought it was clever.
Imagine your say grown up daughter tells you about an abuse from an uncle / family friend. You ask said uncle and they deny everything. Do you just say, well there 'recollections may vary'.

That’s exactly what they did do @Mummy194

The full statement was;

The whole family is saddened to learn the full extent of how challenging the last few years have been for Harry and Meghan.

“The issues raised, particularly that of race, are concerning. While some recollections may vary, they are taken very seriously and will be addressed by the family privately.

“Harry, Meghan and Archie will always be much loved family members.”

The only thing is at the investigation into the alleged racism is private, not public, which you could debate back and forth, whether that’s the best way of doing it.

SallyLockheart · 22/06/2021 13:31

ajandjjmumSo 'recollections may vary' is now not only dismissive, but mocking and ridiculing?! I see it as polite way of saying you disagree.

I agree. And the Queen's message was very much, it should be discussed in private as a family matter and much better than being dissected point by point in public

DeRigueurMortis · 22/06/2021 13:31

I thought part of the story was that that was the only domain they reserved?

The initial story simply said they'd registered Lilibet Diana but didn't mention any other names.

I pointed out then that is was possible they could have registered others.

The Mail is reporting that a Sussex spokesperson has confirmed they bought multiple domain names but is still running with the original headline.

Harry and Meghan bought 'Lilibetdiana.com BEFORE 'approval by Queen'
mol.im/a/9711493

RickiTarr · 22/06/2021 13:33

Oh, well that’s different. Strange story to run as a “gotcha” in the first place then. Confused

MagicSummer · 22/06/2021 13:35

@DeRigueurMortis

As the eldest son of the monarch and heir apparent William would automatically be Duke of Cornwall.

@JustLyra

So that would imply that Catherine automatically becomes Duchess of Cornwall?

So they must have already decided how to style Camilla then presumably as when Charles becomes King she will lose her current title.

I know technically she will be Queen (and personally I have no issue with that) but Queen or Princess Consort that will have to be announced pretty quickly - something I'd not thought about before...

I thought that the title of Prince of Wales, Duke of Cornwall, etc. had to be bestowed on the sovereign's son, it isn't something which automatically happens. Charles was created Prince of Wales in 1958 and was formally invested in 1969 at a ceremony at Caernarvon Castle.
Mummy194 · 22/06/2021 13:35

Why put 'recollections may vary' on a case they are about to investigate?

They have absolutely no idea what the conclusion of it will be !

ajandjjmum · 22/06/2021 13:39

@MagicSummer
My understanding is the the Cornwall title is passed to William automatically, but the new King would have to appoint him Prince of Wales. Maybe that's the plan from California - the Prince of Wales title will go to Harry and Meghan will become the new Princess of Wales! William can just hang around as 'King in waiting'.

CrazyCatsAndKittens · 22/06/2021 13:40

It’s not unusual for celebs to register multiple websites before a child’s birth to throw people off the scent. It’s not like it’s expensive.

RickiTarr · 22/06/2021 13:41

Imagine your say grown up daughter tells you about an abuse from an uncle / family friend. You ask said uncle and they deny everything. Do you just say, well there 'recollections may vary'.

That’s not what this is. It’s the Queen (not accused of anything) sitting there and H&M are a cuing some other royals of something (we don’t know who, but the royal family all do) and the accused royals are saying “no that’s not what I said, I said…” and of course it is all very serious because H&M thing I was racism. So HMQ is really being the ultimate granny there and saying “I take that accusation really seriously, and at the moment you are all telling me different versions, big we will get to the bottom of this, ideally without a family split”.

Which might be a bit hopeful, but I really don’t think she was prejudging. If anything, she is doing that thing that most mums and grandmas do and focusing too much on having to hold the family together despite everything.

RickiTarr · 22/06/2021 13:42

Oh I don’t know why this phone keeps reinstating the nonsensical changes I reject. I hope my posts are readable, sort of.