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The royal family

Prince Charles to alter the Letters Patent - Sussex Children won't become Prince/Princess

999 replies

Comeinoutoftherain · 20/06/2021 07:35

Apologies for the Daily Mail reference, but it's all I have so far.

Apparently PC told H&M shortly before the Oprah interview that his intention was to amend the Letters Patent so that only the children in direct line to the throne (aka William's children) would receive the Prince/Princess title.

So neither Archie nor Lilibet were going to be "upgraded" to Prince/Princess on the Queen's death.

That explains that slightly vague comments made in the OW interview about Archie not being made a Prince; and why relations between PC and H&M were clearly very fraught.

If this is true (and I accept it's hard to see the wood for the trees with the constant press briefings from both sides) I can see it from both points of view.

Harry is in Prince Andrew's position (as a royal, not as a person) which makes Archie and Lilibet on a par with Beatrice and Eugenie. As they get older, and William's children start their own families, the Sussex children drop down the pecking order pretty quickly.

I think Charles has it right that the British Public don't want to keep paying for an extended royal family, you can see that playing out in Europe at the moment. So even if H&M were working royals, their children likely won't be; and I can understand why he wants to present a limited number of royals to the public.

From Harry's perspective, it must feel like a downgrade. It must be difficult being the second (and only other) child in a hierarchical monarchy; being aware from the beginning of all that William is to inherit. Having his children lose something that is currently their birthright must sting a bit.

This should probably have been considered before William and Harry had kids. I doubt it would have been as big a deal when you are not considering actual children, just abstract ones. Or at the very least, it should have been done when the Letters Patent were altered for George, Charlotte and Louis.

It's clearly added to an already tense atmosphere and won't help family relations get back on track.

OP posts:
MargaretFraggle · 22/06/2021 07:20

I thought it was common knowledge that Charles wanted to slim down the monarchy to only working royals to make it more affordable for the taxpayer. I thought also that the plans included M&H and their children until they decided not to be working royals. Perhaps the kids will be able to use Prince/Princess without the HRH. Why Harry wants them to I don't fully understand.

queenofarles · 22/06/2021 08:37

HRH. Why Harry wants them to I don't fully understand I’ve said it from the start, Meghan was under the impression she was marrying into a fairytale, and that she will be the new Diana.
Harry did absolutely nothing to familiarise her with their role within the RF.
after being cut off everything this is the only thing he can offer her and the children, a title, so naturally he will fight for it , the stupidest way ever on a TV show!

One thing I’ve been noticing lately , specially after her chat about her book being a love letter to Harry and Harry giving a speech at Vax live or whatever it’s called, His Appletv appearance . They are all red flags to me. It seems like he feels lost and has no purpose and it’s now Meghan trying to make him feel he is important.
I think for the sake of his own mental health and for the sake of his family he needs to come home and work all his issues with his Father and Grandmother.

ajandjjmum · 22/06/2021 08:51

Meghan said her most important title would always be 'Mom'.

She tried to conflate title with security, but it doesn't work. The Palace is not responsible for security decisions.

I think the truth is that despite saying 'titles are not important', they are actually very important to H & M, not only for commercial reasons, but to give them an anchor as to who they are.

WinnieTheW0rm · 22/06/2021 09:29

William becomes Duke of Cornwall

Not sure that's automatic, as the holder would still be living and the title would merge with the Crown and remain there until bestowed on the next holder. He doesn't become Prince of Wales until an investiture either.

But as Charles would become king in the same sentence that confirms the death of the Queen, the royal style of Prince/ss for grandchildren of the monarch would begin at the same time unless there is a change to the LP before the monarch dies

SpindleWhorl · 22/06/2021 09:30

Meanwhile, The Telegraph, the favourite newspaper of our own dear Prime Minister, is running today with headlines,

Sussexes confirm they bought ‘Lilibet Diana’ domain before Queen’s approval

The revelation will raise more questions about whether couple sought advance permission to use Her Majesty’s pet name, or rather ‘told’ her

Tangled webs all round.

Skiptheheartsandflowers · 22/06/2021 09:37

There was also the 'linked not ranked' discussion with Gloria Steinem, which looks a bit hollow with this interest now in the kids having royal titles.

Samcro · 22/06/2021 09:47

it might not be the prince/princess part that is important to them.
It might be that yet again them and their children are being treated differently. I must be so hard being the "spare' just expected to support the golden child. not so bad when there is just you, but who would want to see their wife and children treated like that.

queenofarles · 22/06/2021 09:56

Sussexes confirm they bought ‘Lilibet Diana’ domain before Queen’s approval
So why threaten BBC then? It’s clear they didn’t ask the Queen about using the name?

JustLyra · 22/06/2021 10:00

@WinnieTheW0rm

William becomes Duke of Cornwall

Not sure that's automatic, as the holder would still be living and the title would merge with the Crown and remain there until bestowed on the next holder. He doesn't become Prince of Wales until an investiture either.

But as Charles would become king in the same sentence that confirms the death of the Queen, the royal style of Prince/ss for grandchildren of the monarch would begin at the same time unless there is a change to the LP before the monarch dies

As the eldest son of the monarch and heir apparent William would automatically be Duke of Cornwall.

It would only stay merged with the crown if something happened to William as George would be heir apparent, but not the eldest son of the monarch.

The Prince of Wales does have to be given, as it’s not restricted to the eldest son, so that isn’t automatic.

CrazyCatsAndKittens · 22/06/2021 10:00

@queenofarles

Sussexes confirm they bought ‘Lilibet Diana’ domain before Queen’s approval So why threaten BBC then? It’s clear they didn’t ask the Queen about using the name?
Well, it’s interesting that the BBC didn’t take down the story and he never actually sued them.
GlencoraP · 22/06/2021 10:00

It’s not that they are different, they are the same as all the other grandchildren and great grandchildren. It’s William that’s the exception and frankly that’s the definition of a hereditary monarchy . Only one person can be the monarch. If the monarchy continues that’s how it will be for George.

Wanttocry · 22/06/2021 10:10

@Samcro

it might not be the prince/princess part that is important to them. It might be that yet again them and their children are being treated differently. I must be so hard being the "spare' just expected to support the golden child. not so bad when there is just you, but who would want to see their wife and children treated like that.
Harry will have grown up seeing his cousins treated differently to him and William, both in terms of titles/rank but also informal things and public interest etc. For example the jubilee balcony thing with just the queen, C&C, W&K, and Harry. The cousins (Peter, Zara etc) weren’t invited to that. It’s clear that Harry’s children were going to be the cousins in any future situation. He can’t possibly have expected, given the way the system works, for his children to be the same as George, Charlotte and Louis. It’s hypocritical to feel outraged now he’s on the other side of it. He doesn’t like the system, (that’s totally reasonable, it must be horrible) so he’s left. But, once you’ve left, once you’ve said “I want no part of this”, why would you care.
queenofarles · 22/06/2021 10:12

so they’ve nicked HM childhood name and registered as theirs cheeky!!Grin
And here we all thought it was an olive branch gesture .

Serenster · 22/06/2021 10:17

It’s like what 6 year old Princess Margaret said to Elizabeth when they realised that with Edward VIII’s abdication, Elizabeth would be the next Queen - “Well, poor you!”. William’s different status comes at no small cost to him personally. Harry may covet the trappings of the status but from what he has said about his time as a working royal, he really wouldn’t relish his brother’s role.

SpindleWhorl · 22/06/2021 10:19

The BBC and the Telegraph could be wrong, of course; but they seem very sure of their sources.

Oldbutstillgotit · 22/06/2021 10:22

@ Samcro
“it might not be the prince/princess part that is important to them.
It might be that yet again them and their children are being treated differently. I must be so hard being the "spare' just expected to support the golden child. not so bad when there is just you, but who would want to see their wife and children treated like that.”

Up to a point I agree with you . I grew up on the shadow of The Golden Child and it had a huge impact on my self esteem for years .
Having said that I do think that had H and M stayed in the U.K. as working royals this issue would never have arisen. If ( as reported ) they are upset about the tithes thing why not use the Earl/Lord and Lady ?
I am not sure how ithe Prince/ Princess thing could possibly matter if the family stay in the US.

Allington · 22/06/2021 10:37

@GlencoraP

It’s not that they are different, they are the same as all the other grandchildren and great grandchildren. It’s William that’s the exception and frankly that’s the definition of a hereditary monarchy . Only one person can be the monarch. If the monarchy continues that’s how it will be for George.
Exactly this.

It's an accident of birth that makes William's children more 'special' (from the point of view of the monarchy) than Harry's.

The same accident of birth that makes Harry more 'special' (from the point of view of the monarchy) than his cousins, or than you and me.

He either buys into the system (and accepts that his children are less important than his brother's), or doesn't - in which case he has no claims to be 'special' either and no claim to titles. At the moment he doesn't seem to get that he can't have it both ways.

Oldbutstillgotit · 22/06/2021 11:26

Allington

You have put it so much better than me !

Viviennemary · 22/06/2021 11:43

Exactly Allington. A hereditary monarchy is about as unfair as it gets.

ajandjjmum · 22/06/2021 12:38

@queenofarles

so they’ve nicked HM childhood name and registered as theirs cheeky!!Grin And here we all thought it was an olive branch gesture .
Grin queen - I think there were quite a few people who immediately suspected there was no olive branch in sight!
RickiTarr · 22/06/2021 12:43

At the moment he doesn't seem to get that he can't have it both ways.

I have to say, after mulling it over for a week, that Harry’s threat to sue the BBC -for reporting something that Buckingham Palace had told them - really speaks volumes about his analytical and intellectual capacities. Which of course isn’t a personality flaw or a moral failing, but my goodness if he doesn’t understand the game he is playing, but is still determined to play, this is going to get messy.

RickiTarr · 22/06/2021 12:45

I do love the Queen (or her office) for coining the term “mistruths”, though. Grin

ChardonnaysPetDragon · 22/06/2021 12:53

Registration of the name makes sense because then no one else can do it and use it, so I don’t think this is bad form on their part.

RickiTarr · 22/06/2021 13:01

@ChardonnaysPetDragon

Registration of the name makes sense because then no one else can do it and use it, so I don’t think this is bad form on their part.
It’s just that the timing of the registration proves they didn’t ask the Queen for permission to use the name at all. Possibly told her.
upinaballoon · 22/06/2021 13:04

@RickiTarr

I do love the Queen (or her office) for coining the term “mistruths”, though. Grin
I thought "recollections may vary" was a very good phrase, whoever it was that actually coined it.
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