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The royal family

Prince Charles to alter the Letters Patent - Sussex Children won't become Prince/Princess

999 replies

Comeinoutoftherain · 20/06/2021 07:35

Apologies for the Daily Mail reference, but it's all I have so far.

Apparently PC told H&M shortly before the Oprah interview that his intention was to amend the Letters Patent so that only the children in direct line to the throne (aka William's children) would receive the Prince/Princess title.

So neither Archie nor Lilibet were going to be "upgraded" to Prince/Princess on the Queen's death.

That explains that slightly vague comments made in the OW interview about Archie not being made a Prince; and why relations between PC and H&M were clearly very fraught.

If this is true (and I accept it's hard to see the wood for the trees with the constant press briefings from both sides) I can see it from both points of view.

Harry is in Prince Andrew's position (as a royal, not as a person) which makes Archie and Lilibet on a par with Beatrice and Eugenie. As they get older, and William's children start their own families, the Sussex children drop down the pecking order pretty quickly.

I think Charles has it right that the British Public don't want to keep paying for an extended royal family, you can see that playing out in Europe at the moment. So even if H&M were working royals, their children likely won't be; and I can understand why he wants to present a limited number of royals to the public.

From Harry's perspective, it must feel like a downgrade. It must be difficult being the second (and only other) child in a hierarchical monarchy; being aware from the beginning of all that William is to inherit. Having his children lose something that is currently their birthright must sting a bit.

This should probably have been considered before William and Harry had kids. I doubt it would have been as big a deal when you are not considering actual children, just abstract ones. Or at the very least, it should have been done when the Letters Patent were altered for George, Charlotte and Louis.

It's clearly added to an already tense atmosphere and won't help family relations get back on track.

OP posts:
Roussette · 21/06/2021 22:27

I've never seen the Crown, not even five minutes of it!
Does not appeal at all.

DeRigueurMortis · 21/06/2021 22:35

@Roussette

Nobody conned Diana into marrying Charles. She did it willingly

She had just turned 20! It was awful. I cannot imagine encouraging my DD who was only just 19 when they got engaged .. to marry a 32 year old.

And I have no idea if she was the first to be unfaithful in the marriage. I doubt anyone knows. Charles's heart was elsewhere.

Yes I agree she was too young and the fact they'd only had 6 (I think) dates before they got engaged should have been a red flag to both of them.

Where were her friends and family telling her to slow down (or did they perhaps get the same treatment as H allegedly gave W when making the same point to his brother)?

She very much much wanted to get married is the point I'm making and he in turn was under massive pressure to get married.

My criticism is predominantly reserved for those who put him under pressure and those who failed to look after her best interests.

The Crown comment was directed at Pics and not you Rou.

Roussette · 21/06/2021 22:40

I agree there was pressure from both sides. But I don't think Charles was very true to be honest

He never really gave up Camilla... he rang her every day whilst on honeymoon!
Imagine if someone posted that on a thread here?
"Have I the right to be jealous, my new husband has rung his ex every day on our honeymoon?"

Ahh... sorry, the Crown, yes, didn't realise.

AncientandFabulous · 21/06/2021 22:52

It was an arranged marriage nothing more nothing less. My marriage was arranged, as was that of my dh’s siblings, inlaws, parents etc every single one of us knew what we were getting into. It wasn’t for my inlaws to protect me if needed. It was for my family to look out for me in the negotiations. My cousin had never met her Dh when she came over from another country to get married at the age of 17. His girlfriend was at their wedding & I’m fairly certain that relationship continued for a while. Different times, different expectations.

DeRigueurMortis · 21/06/2021 22:57

I don't think the phone call story is true Rou.

Diana certainly didn't state this in the Morton biography (she did say he wore on honeymoon a pair of cuff links from Camilla engraved with C&C and she'd found 2 photos of Camilla in his diary). I think if he'd been calling every day she'd have got that into the book.

That said let's face its pretty damn insensitive re: cuff links and the photos and yes I agree he was in love with Camilla.

But yes he was under pressure to marry to marry a suitable bride - his closest relatives (the Queen Mother and Lord Mountbatten in particular) were very keen to point him at Diana.

It was all just an unholy mess driven by outdated notions of what a "suitable" bride was (virginal and titled) and that ruled most women of Charles age out.

Roussette · 21/06/2021 23:07

Is it not? I remember it from years ago, flippin' press! Blush

Very different times now, no one in the RF will be pushed into a "suitable" marriage.

However, do wish they'd marry from other royal houses, at least the incoming person would have an idea what to expect.
George needs to learn Spanish, Felipe and Letizia have two lovely daughters

upinaballoon · 21/06/2021 23:35

Picsinred speaks of Diana being used as breeding stock, and many have said that sort of thing. I don't think I've lost my memory completely, and I think when Diana was engaged to Charles her father Johnny Spencer described her as being a perfect physical specimen. I have looked recently on Google and it seems more to suggest that he said it about her when she was a baby, but I wouldn't have known about it then. I thought he meant that she was good breeding material but perhaps he was just speaking admiringly about her looks.
Like some other marriages it seemed all right at the start but they just didn't have enough in common for it really to work. It was very sad.

RickiTarr · 22/06/2021 00:15

Phoning your ex, ship-to-shore, daily from your honeymoon on the royal yacht seems unlikely to me. Those would not be secure, private lines, for one thing sand I don’t thing Charles the as actually evil just pushed into an arranged marriage and maybe slightly tactless.

Actually @DeRigueurMortis ‘s description of how that marriage came about seems to me to be one of the most balanced and plausible summaries I’ve read anywhere.

RickiTarr · 22/06/2021 00:15

Sorry, fat fingers. Blush

NeonDreams · 22/06/2021 01:33

This just proves Meghan right in the OW interview. It is exactly as she said it. Charles wants to amend the rules to exclude Meghan and Harry's children.

Personally I would have thought, in the interests of congeniality and compassion since Meghan is black, he should just let Meghan and Harry''s kids keep their Prince/Princess titles, as a one-off and slim down the monarchy everywhere else. Considering she is black he should not want to rock the boat, and just allow them to keep the titles because otherwise it looks bad of Charles to do that to the children of a black woman. It's just not a good look to take them.

DeRigueurMortis · 22/06/2021 02:03

This just proves Meghan right in the OW interview. It is exactly as she said it. Charles wants to amend the rules to exclude Meghan and Harry's children.

I'm sorry but it simply doesn't.

If you read the read the thread you'll see Charles can't amend the rules to do this (it's not in his power even if he wanted to).

There are some long posts below explaining how Letters Patent work and what needs to be done via acts of Parliament plus all the reasons why and wherefore.

NeonDreams · 22/06/2021 02:23

@DeRigueurMortis

This just proves Meghan right in the OW interview. It is exactly as she said it. Charles wants to amend the rules to exclude Meghan and Harry's children.

I'm sorry but it simply doesn't.

If you read the read the thread you'll see Charles can't amend the rules to do this (it's not in his power even if he wanted to).

There are some long posts below explaining how Letters Patent work and what needs to be done via acts of Parliament plus all the reasons why and wherefore.

Yes, the parliament is a formality. The Queen amended the Letters Patent to give Charlotte a Title. So it can easily be done. The point is, Meghan said she was told they were going to amend it, and her children wouldn't have a Title.

The RF's admission this what they intend to do, backs up what Meghan said. Very straightforward, clear and simple.

PurpleOkapi · 22/06/2021 02:31

Yes, the parliament is a formality.

I'm normally happy to defer to native Brits regarding what Parliament will and won't do, but I have a hard time believing it will rubber-stamp Charles's supposed decision to strip Archie and Lili of the titles they automatically acquired upon his accession with so little fuss that it's simply a "formality."

DeRigueurMortis · 22/06/2021 02:39
  • Yes, the parliament is a formality. The Queen amended the Letters Patent to give Charlotte a Title. So it can easily be done. The point is, Meghan said she was told they were going to amend it, and her children wouldn't have a Title.

The RF's admission this what they intend to do, backs up what Meghan said. Very straightforward, clear and simple.*

No it's not simple, Parliament isn't a formality and that's not what Megan said.

Changes to the LP are not a simple admin task and have long term implications.

Yet again that's all been discussed below, including quotes from Meghan for context.

SenecaFallsRedux · 22/06/2021 03:10

Parliament would have to act to take away Harry's dukedom or to remove him or his children from the succession. But I am fairly sure that Charles will not need Parliament's assent to issue new Letters Patent that remove princely titles and styles from Archie and Lili, if that is his choice. Something similar happened with the LPs of 1917, and I'm not aware of any intervening law or practice that has changed that.

CrazyCatsAndKittens · 22/06/2021 04:36

Other newspapers have stated that the Mail on Sunday story was from a source close to the Sussexes and not part of the Lacey book. I think it is unlikely to be true as people have pointed out on this thread, Charles doesn't have the power to do this. The story from the Lacey book was that it was William who separated the households as he was furious about the Megan bullying claims. It does seem interesting timing that the story about Charles dropped at the same time as the bullying story dropped. Coincidence?

CrazyCatsAndKittens · 22/06/2021 04:38

Here’s an example from The Independent

www.google.co.jp/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/prince-charles-harry-archie-royal-family-b1869572.html%3famp

SenecaFallsRedux · 22/06/2021 05:06

Of course Charles does not have the power to change any princely titles now. But he will when he is king. And if Charles ascends with the current LPs in place, Archie and Lili will be prince and princess. But Charles can change that. The article refers to Archie "never being a prince." For that to be the case, the Queen will need to issue new LPs.

CrazyCatsAndKittens · 22/06/2021 05:11

I really don’t think Charles will remove Lili and Archie’s titles once he becomes king. I think it’s clear the issue he has is with Harry and Meghan. It would be a PR disaster to remove the titles from the kids when they have done nothing wrong. The Queen won’t do it either. It would give the Sussexes too much ammo.

CovidCorvid · 22/06/2021 06:17

@SenecaFallsRedux

Of course Charles does not have the power to change any princely titles now. But he will when he is king. And if Charles ascends with the current LPs in place, Archie and Lili will be prince and princess. But Charles can change that. The article refers to Archie "never being a prince." For that to be the case, the Queen will need to issue new LPs.
I’m not sure….does Archie currently become a prince instantly on the queen’s death or does it need to be proclaimed by the new monarch? I think it might be the latter and if so Charles just doesn’t proclaim it and instead within the first few days issues new LP.
CovidCorvid · 22/06/2021 06:18

And I don’t think it would be a PR disaster, possibly it might have been of Harry and Meghan were still here being working royals. But people will rightly say if you don’t want to be a royal then your kids can’t be princes and princesses.

JustLyra · 22/06/2021 06:21

I’m not sure….does Archie currently become a prince instantly on the queen’s death or does it need to be proclaimed by the new monarch? I think it might be the latter and if so Charles just doesn’t proclaim it and instead within the first few days issues new LP.

It’s automatic.

William becomes Duke of Cornwall. William and Harry become HRH The Prince William/Henry. All grandchildren on the male line, which is all of them fit Charles, become HRH Prince/Princess.

CrazyCatsAndKittens · 22/06/2021 06:27

@CovidCorvid

And I don’t think it would be a PR disaster, possibly it might have been of Harry and Meghan were still here being working royals. But people will rightly say if you don’t want to be a royal then your kids can’t be princes and princesses.
Also, people will say that this proves Meghan's point that they were stripped of their titles just because of their race. It would prove that what she said in the Oprah Winfrey interview was true, so other things the Sussexes have said must also be true.

BUT

If Archie and Lili become prince and princess upon Charles becoming king, then it supports the narrative that the Sussexes are just talking bollocks. That they are liars and full of shit.

Which would be better PR for the Royal family?

Maireas · 22/06/2021 06:59

The Queen, although seemingly in good health, is very elderly. It could happen at any time. Everything is in place. From the moment of Charles' accession, those grandchildren will be Prince Archie and Princess Lilibet.
Whether or not those titles are used is another matter ( see James and Louise). Possibly the suggestion is to put them into abeyance, much as with Harry and Meghan's HRH styling.
I can't think children brought up in California would want them? Different if they were living in the UK.

Lockdownbear · 22/06/2021 07:10

If its automatic then Charles will be wanting to make the changes now. My guess is he is doing a load of the Monarchs role anyway. HMQ is very elderly and still working but can't possibly be doing everything that she would have being normally be doing 20 or 30 years ago.