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The royal family

Prince Charles to alter the Letters Patent - Sussex Children won't become Prince/Princess

999 replies

Comeinoutoftherain · 20/06/2021 07:35

Apologies for the Daily Mail reference, but it's all I have so far.

Apparently PC told H&M shortly before the Oprah interview that his intention was to amend the Letters Patent so that only the children in direct line to the throne (aka William's children) would receive the Prince/Princess title.

So neither Archie nor Lilibet were going to be "upgraded" to Prince/Princess on the Queen's death.

That explains that slightly vague comments made in the OW interview about Archie not being made a Prince; and why relations between PC and H&M were clearly very fraught.

If this is true (and I accept it's hard to see the wood for the trees with the constant press briefings from both sides) I can see it from both points of view.

Harry is in Prince Andrew's position (as a royal, not as a person) which makes Archie and Lilibet on a par with Beatrice and Eugenie. As they get older, and William's children start their own families, the Sussex children drop down the pecking order pretty quickly.

I think Charles has it right that the British Public don't want to keep paying for an extended royal family, you can see that playing out in Europe at the moment. So even if H&M were working royals, their children likely won't be; and I can understand why he wants to present a limited number of royals to the public.

From Harry's perspective, it must feel like a downgrade. It must be difficult being the second (and only other) child in a hierarchical monarchy; being aware from the beginning of all that William is to inherit. Having his children lose something that is currently their birthright must sting a bit.

This should probably have been considered before William and Harry had kids. I doubt it would have been as big a deal when you are not considering actual children, just abstract ones. Or at the very least, it should have been done when the Letters Patent were altered for George, Charlotte and Louis.

It's clearly added to an already tense atmosphere and won't help family relations get back on track.

OP posts:
Nishky · 20/06/2021 07:42

Is it me, or is this old news - not having a pop at you for starting the thread- but I this was already known

Or am I just hallucinating? I haven’t watched the Oprah interview but I am sure this was discussed ( I saw a clip)

Nishky · 20/06/2021 07:43

*I thought this was already known

CrazyCatsAndKittens · 20/06/2021 07:44

Having his children lose something that is currently their birthright must sting a bit.

But yet harry complains so much about how terrible his life as a prince has been, so why would he want this for his kids?

I think it seems that this was discussed before Harry had kids. At least that was what was said during the Oprah interview that they had intended to change the rules so Harry's children would never be princes or princesses even when Charles became king, so I don't think this is a shock for anyone.

I think it's pretty clear that the relationship between Charles and Harry is utterly dead.

FolornLawn · 20/06/2021 07:44

What practical difference in day to day life do the titles make? Is it to do with security or how much money they get given?

CovidCorvid · 20/06/2021 07:47

He’s said for a long time, pre Meghan that he wants a slimmed down monarchy. It’s no surprise and I think the right thing to do.

traumatisednoodle · 20/06/2021 07:48

I think Harry knew or had been told, not necessarily the same thing, but nobody told Megan who might have (reasonably) assumed her children would be tittled.

Oldbutstillgotit · 20/06/2021 07:54

I thought H and M didn’t want titles for their children ? If they did , Archie would currently be Earl of Dumbarton and Lilibet would be ( I think ) Lady.

wishingitwasfriday · 20/06/2021 07:55

But if you don't want to be a working royal then why should you have any of the luxuries (titles, funding etc) that come as part and parcel of that? I don't blame Prince Charles at all and think most people would agree. Had Harry wished to remain as working royal and actually attend the opening of village halls etc for a living then, yes, he and his family should have been treated in a similar fashion to price Andrew/Edward.

AvocadoPlant · 20/06/2021 07:57

I think it’ll be good to have the clarity. And is in tune with the public mood to slim down the monarchy as supported by the public order.

Am I right in thinking that the grandchildren of the Queen are:-
Phillip & Zara
Princes William and Harry
Princesses Beatrice and Eugenie
Lady Louise and Viscount James

So a right mix!

EdithWeston · 20/06/2021 08:00

It probably became an issue only because they expressed their wish to be non-working royals and agreed to put their HRHs into abeyance.

This hasn't happened yet, and it is only speculation that it ever will.

And I agree, if they wanted titles, their DC would be Lord Archie and Lady Lili or would be the Earl of Dumbarton and Lady Lili.

CrazyCatsAndKittens · 20/06/2021 08:00

@Oldbutstillgotit

I thought H and M didn’t want titles for their children ? If they did , Archie would currently be Earl of Dumbarton and Lilibet would be ( I think ) Lady.
Well, we don't know for sure, but Meghan seemed pretty upset at the children not being princes and princesses when she was talking about it during the Oprah interview. She said it's because they wouldn't get security, but that doesn't really make sense as Beatrice and Eugenie are princesses but they don't get security outside of working, same for Edward and Sophie. I think if there was a credible threat towards the children, they would get police security regardless of titles. It's just one of many things that didn't really make sense.
Backstreetsbackalrightdadada · 20/06/2021 08:03

Isn’t that what they all want? I can’t keep up with this drama. I thought H&M wanted out of the royals and PC has always wanted a slimmed down monarchy (without his siblings’ kids, but now he needs them). So you wouldn’t be a prince/ Princess if you’re not a royal, isn’t that a working title?

Oldbutstillgotit · 20/06/2021 08:04

But if it is to do with security, the Met Police won’t provide it as long as they are in the US so as long as live there , H and M will have to pay for it themselves.
I am sure we will hear more soon.

ChardonnaysPetDragon · 20/06/2021 08:05

The monarchy has to chance when Charles becomes king. It makes sense to restrict the use of titles.

RaspberryCoulis · 20/06/2021 08:06

And quite right too.

Anne's children aren't Prince/Princess and neither are Edward's.

RaspberryCoulis · 20/06/2021 08:08

Oh and Hazza and Megs are pissed off about it because plain old Miss and Mr Mountbatten-Windsor are a lot less marketable than a Prince and Princess.

FillerAngel · 20/06/2021 08:29

Edward’s children are allowed to style themselves Prince and Princess but don’t.

I can see why H&M are annoyed - they wanted to look like they didn’t mind about titles by not using the Earl of Dumbarton and Lady Lilibet courtesy titles but they were saving themselves for the big guns.

I always thought that was Prince Charles’ plan as he has said for decades he will keep working royals to the direct line but Harry must have thought it wouldn’t apply to him.

Perching · 20/06/2021 08:33

I think they really needed the Prince/princess styling to legitimise their link to the royal family, and therefore the money they can make off the back of it.

Archie is the Earl of Dumbarton - he has a title? He us Lord Archie, they can use that?

Quite fed up with these two.

FillerAngel · 20/06/2021 08:37

Also if being royal is so dreadful you have to run away then this is a good thing? Zara and Peter seem happy and relatively successful without a title? They do get on like a house on fire and are extremely close to their cousins and various uncles and aunts though. They are really in the family in all senses of the word, whereas sadly Archie and Lilibet may not be because of location and bad family relations.

TurquoiseLemur · 20/06/2021 08:41

@traumatisednoodle

I think Harry knew or had been told, not necessarily the same thing, but nobody told Megan who might have (reasonably) assumed her children would be tittled.
I wondered this too.

The Royal Family are not known for their excellent relationship skills. I think it's perfectly possible that Harry knew but hadn't mentioned it to Meghan.

It's a lack of social imagination and empathy, really, a failure to imagine what it might be like being about to marry into the RF, what a person in that situation needs to know, what a person in that situation might well be confused about. We saw that magnified when Charles got engaged and then married to Diana, an assumption that she would just know things: why on earth would she?

In that scenario there was deliberate deceit as well. I'm not sure that there was with Harry.

Wanttocry · 20/06/2021 08:41

Anne's children aren't Prince/Princess and neither are Edward's.

Slight technicality but Edward’s are Prince and Princess but they don’t use it, Sophie has said they can decide for themselves if they want to use it when they reach 18.

Wanttocry · 20/06/2021 08:43

This story in the DM, maybe I didn’t read it properly, but it just said that this came from a Sussex “source” who said H&M had been told this by Charles. So it’s not exactly confirmed to be happening.

SpindleWhorl · 20/06/2021 08:45

You know you just get sick of hearing some people's opinions in the end, the same old blathering, whining on about the same old shit, the bitterness and the stupidity of it all?

Well I was already there with Prince Andrew, and Piers Morgan on Meghan and Harry. Now I'm there with Meghan and Harry on the Royal Family too. I'm also pretty sick of Buckingham Palace insiders and everyone's fucking 'friends' and 'sources'.

Harry is definitely giving off a vibe I've seen before in end-game politics, a version of, 'If I'm going down you're all going down with me'.

This complete bloody mess needs diplomatic, political intervention and/or Prince Charles needs to cut them off completely, to keep any shred of credibility attached to the monarchy. And, the minute the Queen dies and is laid to rest, if he hasn't got the balls to do it now, he needs to throw Andrew to the FBI wolves. Although it would be a lot better if he, Charles, did it. Show some backbone. Have some purpose.

LadyWithLapdog · 20/06/2021 08:47

The DM is constantly needling on this subject. I wish they’d give it a break, with everything going on in the world this is their pathetic headline. Even the football would be better.

Lockdownbear · 20/06/2021 08:50

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