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The royal family

Prince Charles to alter the Letters Patent - Sussex Children won't become Prince/Princess

999 replies

Comeinoutoftherain · 20/06/2021 07:35

Apologies for the Daily Mail reference, but it's all I have so far.

Apparently PC told H&M shortly before the Oprah interview that his intention was to amend the Letters Patent so that only the children in direct line to the throne (aka William's children) would receive the Prince/Princess title.

So neither Archie nor Lilibet were going to be "upgraded" to Prince/Princess on the Queen's death.

That explains that slightly vague comments made in the OW interview about Archie not being made a Prince; and why relations between PC and H&M were clearly very fraught.

If this is true (and I accept it's hard to see the wood for the trees with the constant press briefings from both sides) I can see it from both points of view.

Harry is in Prince Andrew's position (as a royal, not as a person) which makes Archie and Lilibet on a par with Beatrice and Eugenie. As they get older, and William's children start their own families, the Sussex children drop down the pecking order pretty quickly.

I think Charles has it right that the British Public don't want to keep paying for an extended royal family, you can see that playing out in Europe at the moment. So even if H&M were working royals, their children likely won't be; and I can understand why he wants to present a limited number of royals to the public.

From Harry's perspective, it must feel like a downgrade. It must be difficult being the second (and only other) child in a hierarchical monarchy; being aware from the beginning of all that William is to inherit. Having his children lose something that is currently their birthright must sting a bit.

This should probably have been considered before William and Harry had kids. I doubt it would have been as big a deal when you are not considering actual children, just abstract ones. Or at the very least, it should have been done when the Letters Patent were altered for George, Charlotte and Louis.

It's clearly added to an already tense atmosphere and won't help family relations get back on track.

OP posts:
MattyGroves · 20/06/2021 09:34

@TroysMammy

Didn't Prince Andrew demand his daughters were Princesses even though they were not entitled to be?
No, they were entitled to be automatically.
Labradooodle · 20/06/2021 09:35

@TroysMammy

Didn't Prince Andrew demand his daughters were Princesses even though they were not entitled to be?
I do find it confusinng with charles' Anne Andrew and Edward tbh because it's often said that Anne turned them down for her children but then Andrew demanded them? That doesn't makes sense! Can't see a pattern there. and then Edwards children got the titles but don't use them which would suggest that Anne did turn them down rather than Andrew demanded them??
MattyGroves · 20/06/2021 09:36

Anne's children were not automatically entitled to titles as she is a daughter not a son.

SallyLockheart · 20/06/2021 09:36

Andrew's children are entitled to be Princesses as the children of a son of the monarch (children of a daughter of the monarch are not entitled, hence Peter and Zara don't have titles) -per the letters of patent

sadperson16 · 20/06/2021 09:38

Why don't they all bloody do something with their huge wealth?

People are on their knees in this country, living in rat infested hell holes with nothing to eat.

ohforarainyday · 20/06/2021 09:40

Good to see that Meghan's been vindicated and proven to have been speaking the truth when she says she was told the RF would be changing the rules so Archie would no longer automatically become a prince when Charles is crowned.

After all the posts calling her a liar or saying she didn't understand or claiming she wanted Archie to be a prince at birth, it's good that she's been proven right and Charles really was plotting to change the law to exclude Archie.

All the posters complaining about the fact they left: you do realise all the conversations about Archie's title and being denied access to security pre-date them leaving, and date to a time when they were both dutiful and hard working working royals?

MattyGroves · 20/06/2021 09:42

The slimmed down monarchy thing will only work if Wills and Kate take on more engagements. The older royals can't do all of it forever.

PanamaPattie · 20/06/2021 09:43

This is not news.

dancealittleclosertome · 20/06/2021 09:45

I think it is insensitive at best from Charles, when things were changed so that Charlotte and Louie could be Princess and Prince, I think? Or have I got that wrong?

To make a change to stop Archie and Lili from the same is feelings-blind. Particularly when there's just William and Harry, the two of them. It puts one almost against the other. It would be different if William and Harry had other siblings because then it wouldn't seem so personal.

Charles can be very insensitive I think. If indeed these reports are true, of course.

MindyStClaire · 20/06/2021 09:46

Andrew didn't demand titles for his children, that was automatic and in line with that's always happened - the Queen has plenty of cousins who are prince or princess.

There were stories that he demanded security for them as adults but Charles didn't think there was a need. I believe Charles won that one and they don't have security day to day.

Meghan tied security and titles together in the interview, but I don't think that's ever really been the custom. Maybe it's where Charles wants to draw a line going forward though.

ChardonnaysPetDragon · 20/06/2021 09:49

After all the posts calling her a liar or saying she didn't understand or claiming she wanted Archie to be a prince at birth, it's good that she's been proven right and Charles really was plotting to change the law to exclude Archie.

Plotting to exclude Archie? Really? This has been talked about for a long time and it's needed in order for the Monarchy to move on after the inevitable changes which will come when QE2 is no more the monarch. Making this about about someone's hurt feelings is very shortsighted.

YanTanTethera123 · 20/06/2021 09:50

@wishingitwasfriday

But if you don't want to be a working royal then why should you have any of the luxuries (titles, funding etc) that come as part and parcel of that? I don't blame Prince Charles at all and think most people would agree. Had Harry wished to remain as working royal and actually attend the opening of village halls etc for a living then, yes, he and his family should have been treated in a similar fashion to price Andrew/Edward.
This ^^ 100%. It’s about time the Sussex’s realised they can’t have their cake and eat it. The slimmed down royal family assumed that they’d be fully participating and pulling their weight, not opting to do as little as possible for as much money as they could get.
Serenster · 20/06/2021 09:51

They are reporting on Robert Lacey’s updated book about Harry and William - so if it’s made up, it’s been made up by Robert Lacey not the Mail.

This is, in two respects, not new news. At the Queen’s diamond jubilee in 2012 there was much talk about the “slimmed down” balcony appearance, with just The Queen, Charles and Camilla, the Cambridges and Harry appearing on the balcony, in contrast to the position 10 years earlier. There was a lot of coverage at this at the time, and how Andrew was slighted by Charles’ vision of a streamlined future family. Then, as now, no one had much time for Andrew though. Also, Meghan definitely suggested this would be the case in her Oprah interview - she said they had been told the Letters Patent dating back to 1917 would be changed so Archie would not be made a Prince (and these discussions were happening the same time as discussions about his skin colour - Oprah and many viewers inferred that the decision was being made due to racism).

This 2017 article talks quite openly about Charles intending to review funding/finances etc when he is in charge, and to be honest that seems quite sensible. In 20-30 years time Archie and Lili will be in the same position as the Wessexes children (i.e. Charles grandchildren) or David Linley and Sarah Chatto (i.e. William’s niece/nephew). Do we really think any of them need to be titled as Princes or Princesses? Personally, no. I also don’t think that the children of Charlotte and Louis need to be Princes or Princesses either - they will also be affected by this.

Serenster · 20/06/2021 09:52

Sorry, here’s the link to the article I mentioned!

inews.co.uk/news/uk/wars-succession-windsors-flux-courtiers-depart-prince-charles-prince-andrew-jockey-position-94124

Wanttocry · 20/06/2021 09:55

@ohforarainyday

Good to see that Meghan's been vindicated and proven to have been speaking the truth when she says she was told the RF would be changing the rules so Archie would no longer automatically become a prince when Charles is crowned.

After all the posts calling her a liar or saying she didn't understand or claiming she wanted Archie to be a prince at birth, it's good that she's been proven right and Charles really was plotting to change the law to exclude Archie.

All the posters complaining about the fact they left: you do realise all the conversations about Archie's title and being denied access to security pre-date them leaving, and date to a time when they were both dutiful and hard working working royals?

I thought (but may be misremembering) that in the interview she’d talked about both, not having a title from birth (which she linked to him not having security), and the change to the rules to stop him being a Prince later. The source in the DM, which they claim to be a Sussex source but really who knows, says that they found out just before the Oprah interview that the rules would be changed to deny the Prince title when Charles becomes king.
GerryManderson · 20/06/2021 09:56

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diddl · 20/06/2021 10:02

@Samcro

i think most people assumed that when PC talked about slimming down, PH was going to be a working royal and he and his children would still be part of the firm. so it seems odd that even before he walked away, he must have known his children would not be prince/princess. his walking away makes so much sense now.
I thought they walked away due to racism & not being able to have the "half in half out" that they wanted?

It perhaps does depend on the timing but it makes complete sense for the children of two non working Royals living in America not to have titles.

Wakeupin2022 · 20/06/2021 10:02

I wondered if this would happen and I also wondered if Charles would be brave enough to do it because Archie and Lillibet are mixed race so he opens himself up to accusations for racism.

FWIW Charles plans to slim down monarchy have been known long before Meghan came on the scene although no actual details given I guess. I think this would have happened no matter who Harry had married.

I also wonder what Harry's reaction would be if he had married someone else as really this seems to be a gift from his father.

He has so much hatred for all things Royal and its clear he's hated the role hes had to do. So why is he so desparate for his children to have their title.

I hope William and Kate are happy that both Charlotte and Louis kids will never be Prince / Princess. Unless of course William changes it back Grin

OrangeSharked · 20/06/2021 10:05

Annes children would never have been prince/princess because she is a woman. The queen offered them a title but Anne turned it down

Edwards children are not prince/princesses because of Charles slimmed down monarchy I think. Harry's children aren't even the first to be affected

Harry's children are no different to Edwards really.

FillerAngel · 20/06/2021 10:10

Beatrice and Eugenie have titles but no security funded by public money so I’m not sure why H&M would have thought that titles mean security. Prince Andrew paid for private security from his own pocket and he was furious about it.

Even Princess Anne only has a PPO when she’s on assignment, admiring state of the art bin lorries or other unglamorous events. And someone actually has tried to kidnap her already!

H&M would have it if they were on royal duties, opening leisure centres in the rain in Hartlepool or whatever - if they were working royals and more than Princess Anne, for sure - but they aren’t, and they chose that and they’re allowed to choose that and thus they fund their security with Spotify contracts and other media bits and pieces.

I assume Louis and Charlotte won’t do royal duties. She will probably marry a posh stockbroker and Louis can become a gentleman farmer and have families and a fairly private life I hope.

JustLyra · 20/06/2021 10:12

@OrangeSharked

Annes children would never have been prince/princess because she is a woman. The queen offered them a title but Anne turned it down

Edwards children are not prince/princesses because of Charles slimmed down monarchy I think. Harry's children aren't even the first to be affected

Harry's children are no different to Edwards really.

Edward’s children are Prince/Princess. Their parents decided not to use them but the children could at 18 if they want.
Wakeupin2022 · 20/06/2021 10:12

Edwards & Sophie chosen for their children not to be known as Prince / Princess.

They can use it from 18 if they wish.

JustLyra · 20/06/2021 10:15

I assume Louis and Charlotte won’t do royal duties. She will probably marry a posh stockbroker and Louis can become a gentleman farmer and have families and a fairly private life I hope.

I think the loss of Harry, Meghan and Andrew from the the list of full time working royals means that, unless there is a drastic reduction in the number of engagements, they will be working royals.

I also think they’ll ge working royals younger than William and Harry had to be (I wouldn’t be surprised if that’s partly why William seems so furious wuth his brother).

SpindleWhorl · 20/06/2021 10:15

Edward and Sophie's children will decide when they're 18 if they want the prince/princess titles. She confirmed that in 2020.

SpindleWhorl · 20/06/2021 10:16

I need to type quicker ...

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