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The royal family

Prince Charles to alter the Letters Patent - Sussex Children won't become Prince/Princess

999 replies

Comeinoutoftherain · 20/06/2021 07:35

Apologies for the Daily Mail reference, but it's all I have so far.

Apparently PC told H&M shortly before the Oprah interview that his intention was to amend the Letters Patent so that only the children in direct line to the throne (aka William's children) would receive the Prince/Princess title.

So neither Archie nor Lilibet were going to be "upgraded" to Prince/Princess on the Queen's death.

That explains that slightly vague comments made in the OW interview about Archie not being made a Prince; and why relations between PC and H&M were clearly very fraught.

If this is true (and I accept it's hard to see the wood for the trees with the constant press briefings from both sides) I can see it from both points of view.

Harry is in Prince Andrew's position (as a royal, not as a person) which makes Archie and Lilibet on a par with Beatrice and Eugenie. As they get older, and William's children start their own families, the Sussex children drop down the pecking order pretty quickly.

I think Charles has it right that the British Public don't want to keep paying for an extended royal family, you can see that playing out in Europe at the moment. So even if H&M were working royals, their children likely won't be; and I can understand why he wants to present a limited number of royals to the public.

From Harry's perspective, it must feel like a downgrade. It must be difficult being the second (and only other) child in a hierarchical monarchy; being aware from the beginning of all that William is to inherit. Having his children lose something that is currently their birthright must sting a bit.

This should probably have been considered before William and Harry had kids. I doubt it would have been as big a deal when you are not considering actual children, just abstract ones. Or at the very least, it should have been done when the Letters Patent were altered for George, Charlotte and Louis.

It's clearly added to an already tense atmosphere and won't help family relations get back on track.

OP posts:
SnowdaySewday · 20/06/2021 12:30

@JustLyra You miss my point. I know that the situation is as you describe.

I'll try again. As @KatherineParr says, royals only get upgraded. LPs, should be changed to allow “downgrading” as well, not will be changed.

JustLyra · 20/06/2021 12:31

That is what is being denied for the 1st time only to the 1st mixed race royal children

Currently there is nothing in place that prevents it. If the Queen dies today then Archie and Lili are HRH Prince and Princess automatically.

For all the “sources” keep saying it’s going to happen there has been no changes that show that, despite several opportunities for those changes to be made.

DogsSausages · 20/06/2021 12:35

OP. Are you sure that Harry and Andrew are not in the same Royal position, Andrew is the Queens son, Harry is her grandson. Harry is on par with Beatrice and Eugenie. Archie and Lily are the Queens great grandchildren.

StartupRepair · 20/06/2021 12:37

Meghan seems very passionate about her children having titles, for someone who has only been in the Family a few years and would never have thought about titles in her previous life. If titles don't confer security, ad the Met have confirmed, what is the problem with her dc not having them. Louise and James seem perfectly happy.

Samcro · 20/06/2021 12:37

it will be awful if PC doesn't let them be prince/princess.
it doesn't matter if others have decided to not use the title.
to remove it in this case would be bad form imo.

PicsInRed · 20/06/2021 12:41

@DogsSausages

OP. Are you sure that Harry and Andrew are not in the same Royal position, Andrew is the Queens son, Harry is her grandson. Harry is on par with Beatrice and Eugenie. Archie and Lily are the Queens great grandchildren.
No. Harry will be the son of a monarch. B&E will always be the granddaughters of a monarch (then nieces). They are a step removed from the crown, vs Harry.

B&E (and kids Louise and James) are the equivalent of...Archie and Lili - and therein lies the controversy re: different treatment.

PicsInRed · 20/06/2021 12:42

Louise and James seem perfectly happy.

They are prince and princess.

ChardonnaysPetDragon · 20/06/2021 12:47

They are prince and princess

Are prince and princess titles the key to happiness?

Wanttocry · 20/06/2021 12:48

I want to know who expressed "concerns" about what Archie would look like, and exactly what words were used. Now that this allegation is officially admitted to be true, it's time we found out exactly how racist our ruling institution still is.

Officially admitted to be true? Has it?? BP confirmed that this happened?

MagicSummer · 20/06/2021 12:50

It will be interesting to see what happens when H and M divorce and he re-marries. If he came back to England and had more children, would they be Prince and Princess? Also, what would happen to the Sussex kids, living in the USA with their mother and no contact with either their English or American relatives?

KatherineParr · 20/06/2021 12:53

I think the point I'm trying to make, is that this isn't some kind of revolutionary, unprecedented change to have male line grand children of the monarch not using HRH. I don't think there's a massive difference between Edward and Sophie choosing/being told not to use it for their children and this being formalised for Harry and Meghan. Ultimately if they're not using it, does it really matter whether they are technically entitled to do so? For all we know Charles might have told Harry and Meghan that the expectation was they would choose not to use HRH for their children, got a bad reaction, and has now decided it needs to be formalised.

Also the change, as far as I can tell by the vague news reports, wouldn't just apply to Archie and Lili though. It would also apply to any of Prince Louis' children. I don't think that the RF would deliberately put Louis' children at a disadvantage just to target Harry and Meghan.

Ultimately this feels compatible to me with the long term direction the RF has been going in since they decided to slim down back in 1997, and it's unfortunate that this has coincided with a breakdown in family relations. Where I think that the Palace have gone very wrong is that they should have formalised all this before William and Kate got married, let alone Harry and Meghan. If they'd done that there would be no room for interpretation, and ultimately, that's what we're all doing, including myself.

PicsInRed · 20/06/2021 12:54

@Wanttocry

I want to know who expressed "concerns" about what Archie would look like, and exactly what words were used. Now that this allegation is officially admitted to be true, it's time we found out exactly how racist our ruling institution still is.

Officially admitted to be true? Has it?? BP confirmed that this happened?

These days the govt and palace run everything up the flag pole of the media 1st and the media are firmly following the company line.

So, yes, based on how the media is presently utilised, they have confirmed. This story would never have run in the Mail if it was a lie or even if it wasnt what the palace approved - the Mail know which side their bread's buttered.

ohforarainyday · 20/06/2021 12:54

If Charles had loads of children and thus loads of grandchildren the way the Queen does, the argument about slimming the monarchy and denying all Monarch's grandchildren except direct heirs titles would hold more weight.

but Charles only had two children, so changing the law to ensure one boy is treated completely differently from his brother comes across as petty and unnecessary. We're not talking about loads and loads of grandchildren, we're talking about two, both of them mixed race. That's bad optics.

Because the fact is the Queen does have loads of grandchildren, and up till now no one has had any problem with making the entire crowd of them princes and princesses (Anne's children are the exception since she requested it.)

The issue of having lots and lots of titled but non-heir royal grandchildren would have naturally resolved itself due to Charles only having one child who's not a future monarch. So basically they're changing the law over one single person.

The RF needs working royals to conduct engagements. Engagements are the bread and butter of the BRF and the way the BRF justify their expense and existence, and generate goodwill. Many of the working royals are elderly and won't be around forever. There's a dearth of younger royals to replace them and regardless of "slimming" that will become a problem. It certainly feels like the Cambridge children are being groomed to be working royals. They're increasingly being put into the public eye, and unless there's a major change to the monarchy I expect they will be pressured into starting to do royal events quite young.

PicsInRed · 20/06/2021 12:56

@ChardonnaysPetDragon

They are prince and princess

Are prince and princess titles the key to happiness?

They statement addressed was that they were happy despite having only minor titles and it was pointed out they also have prince and princess - unlike what will be given to Archie and Lili.

But you knew that.

Wanttocry · 20/06/2021 12:56

@PicsInRed oh right, I wasn’t aware that the DM had said that

ChardonnaysPetDragon · 20/06/2021 13:00

But they wouldn't be happy if they didn't have the price and princes titles?

CrazyCatsAndKittens · 20/06/2021 13:00

Basically, Charlotte and Louis' kids won't be princesses and princes either assuming that George marries and has children to pass the title onto. I guess if George is childless, then Charlotte will become Queen and her children will become princesses and princes.

Viviennemary · 20/06/2021 13:05

But what is the point of Archie and his sister bring Prince and Princess if they are brought up in the USA a country which doesnt use titles. For people who are so disapproving of the royal system and are all for equality why are they so obsessed with rank and titles.

PicsInRed · 20/06/2021 13:08

[quote Wanttocry]@PicsInRed oh right, I wasn’t aware that the DM had said that[/quote]
My mistake, no, the Mail have confirmed that Charles will change letters patent for Archie and Lili, but not the "what Archie will look like" allegation. However, it's notable that the only denial on the entire Oprah interview was "recollections differ", rather than a specific denial on that allegation, which suggests that they either know/suspect it happened or aren't confident enough that they're getting truthful answers out of everyone in order to specifically risk denying it.

Prince Andrew has been reported in the media to have used the N word in a palace meeting with a (rightly shocked) non white downing street aide, so I do believe it's highly possible for such conversations to have taken place at the palace. Here's a mail and a guardian.

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/nov/18/prince-andrew-used-n-word-former-no-10-aide-claims

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7697571/Ex-No-10-advisor-claims-Prince-Andrew-used-n-woodpile-slur.html

Ladies and Gentlemen, I give you, our "not racist" family. Hmm

PicsInRed · 20/06/2021 13:13

@ChardonnaysPetDragon

But they wouldn't be happy if they didn't have the price and princes titles?
Well, I suppose any overtly exclusionary treatment meted out to the 1st mixed race royals will be hurtful to them, yes. Racism at the hands of one's own family is inherently hurtful and traumatic, and something to be "come to terms with" right? I'm sure they'll be happy overall, but the very public and institutional nature of this, and the clear link to the only difference of their race, will be a source of unhappiness they'll need to work though. Make sense?
CrazyCatsAndKittens · 20/06/2021 13:14

It was reported that Charles had wanted to publish a point by point rebuttal of things that were said during the Oprah interview but the Queen said no.

ChardonnaysPetDragon · 20/06/2021 13:15

Well, I suppose any overtly exclusionary treatment meted out to the 1st mixed race royals will be hurtful to them, yes. Racism at the hands of one's own family is inherently hurtful and traumatic, and something to be "come to terms with" right? I'm sure they'll be happy overall, but the very public and institutional nature of this, and the clear link to the only difference of their race, will be a source of unhappiness they'll need to work though. Make sense?

Is it tough? Meghan is the first mixed race royal and she has her titles.

PicsInRed · 20/06/2021 13:19

Is it tough? Meghan is the first mixed race royal and she has her titles.

Which British people are calling to have removed, which the media are supporting (encouraging) and which the palace seem to be considering. I won't be the least bit surprised if and when that's announced too.

I'm sure this is fine. Nothing to see here.

JustLyra · 20/06/2021 13:19

@CrazyCatsAndKittens

Basically, Charlotte and Louis' kids won't be princesses and princes either assuming that George marries and has children to pass the title onto. I guess if George is childless, then Charlotte will become Queen and her children will become princesses and princes.
As it currently stands Louis children will be titled with HRH Prince/Princess as long as William takes the throne at some point.
ChardonnaysPetDragon · 20/06/2021 13:20

Also, why would they be unhappy? Their parents wanted to move away, to relinquish their Royal duties, to have a new life.

I thought that was supposed to bring their children happiness, but apparently not. Titles are what makes one happy.