Off the lead doesn’t necessarily mean out of control

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I have 2 dogs who are very much under control when off the lead.

I live in the Lakes. I work in the mountains and spend a lot of time in the mountains with my dogs.

There are sheep around, dotted on the hillside. My dogs are off the lead and do not acknowledge these sheep. They don’t exist as far as my dogs are concerned.

It’s much safer for all to not have to contend with a a dog on a lead on steep rocky terrain. I have trained my dogs so we can enjoy the mountains together.

I spent 6hrs in the mountains yesterday with my dogs off the lead. It was snowy under foot and there were other people out walking.

My dogs did not go up to any one or any sheep. They wandered around, mooching near me at all times.

I got in to the valley at the end of the day and walked through a couple of fields. There were sheep in one of the fields. My dogs walked alongside me, not on a lead but under control. They were walking to heel.

Some guy with a dog on a lead came towards me and gave me a bollocking for having my dog off a lead in a field. Apparently I was breaking the law.

I’ve owned dogs for 20 odd years, always lived in the mountains and near farm land. I have always known that sheep worrying is an offence and dogs should be kept under control.

Does that mean on a lead? What are your thoughts?

I think you've just said it yourself..

"so far so good"

it's only good until it's not, you cannot predict the unpredictable

a sheep can miscarry if they’re scared by dogs in the vicinity, they don’t have to be chased for this to happen. It’s respectful, particularly during lambing, to put dogs on a lead if they’re in the same field as livestock.
A farmer can report a dog owner to the police or even shoot a dog they believe is putting their sheep at risk, particularly around lambing season.

I a field with no sheep.

What’s everyone’s views on a dog being off lead in the mountains where there are sheep dotted about randomly?

This is why we give a wide berth. We’d do this when they’re on the lead too

My dogs recall is as bullet proof as I think I could ever get it, they come 100% of the time, immediately, I trust them both completely- BUT in fields with sheep/cattle etc, they are on the lead. They aren’t bothered by sheep, cows, birds, rabbits, nothing. They don’t chase, can be recalled immediately, they have the down command also bullet proof so I always have the option to use that, but it’s just not worth the risk. It’s really no hassle to pop a well trained dog on a lead while walking through a field and if your dogs are as well trained as you say they are then I can’t see what the danger would be in them being on lead?

We have hiking leads for our dogs which clip onto our waist so hands free for scrambling if needed, they don’t pull on the lead at all and so it’s no hassle to have them on as an extra layer of safety.

I’d also worry about the impact of other owners seeing your dogs off lead in the fields and then thinking its okay for them!

Your arrogance is astounding op. You don’t sound too dissimilar to the morons who think their precious fur baby will never hurt them then bang, another story in the daily mail. Anyway that’s a different issue but off lead dogs around livestock can cause stress even if they don’t go after them. If you really must walk them there why cant you just put them
on lead while you’re near sheep? Even the very best of behaved dogs can do out of character things and the consequences of that could be devastating, perhaps criminal.

If I saw you with your dogs, from your description. I would think that this is someone in control of her dogs and used to the terrain/area. You can tell!

Would you accept that farmers would prefer dogs to be on a lead near their livestock? Why would you then require them to personally ask you before you respect that preference as you yomp about in their fields?

Thanks.

It’ll be a shock to all to know that I am a professional mountaineer, who take clients in to the hills climbing and scrambling.

I also come from a farming family. Although not immediate.

I am also a responsible dog owner. I’m not an arrogant one and I make consistent dynamics risk assessments on what is appropriate.

Being too rigid is how people get in to trouble

Because each farmer is individual. Some are not bothered

Your dogs are under control so there's no problem. My dog's not under control even in the lead!

Rubbish. I used to live and work on a farm, I've NEVER known a farmer who was happy for random dogs to be off the lead near their animals.

I think it really does depend on tne dog. My friend had a lab who was the best behaved dog in the world. She could walk her along the pavement without her lead on, and when they'd get to a crossing point her dog would just sit and wait. It was incredible to watch. So a dog like that I would say was bullet proof and she could be walked off lead but to heel in a field of animals.

My dog, a show cocker spaniel, would walk to heel when she was off lead and another dog on a lead would be walking towards us, or we walking round a blind bend into another area, and she was 99% reliable with that. I couldn't walk her off lead along a pavement as of she saw something she would just go for it, be it food or a cat. So I wouldn't walk her off lead in a field of animals, be it sheep or horses etc

I think, for preservation of my dog, I would walk it on a lead in a field of animals.

As a farmer you're making me cringe - EVERY dog owner I speak to SWEARS their dog would never do X Y and Z and is totally under control off the lead. They are, right up until they arent. I've had someone give me attitude 'brownie IS under control....BROWNIE, BROOOIWNNIIEEE!' Brownie literally fucked off the second he said it.

Its not just sheeo, its wildlife too. Hares and birds expend energy every time a dog goes past, even if not chased, it runs them down and affects wintering and breeding success.

I keep my dogs on leads if theyre off my land and not in a dog field.

When you say yours are under control, what do you mean? Would they obey a voice command from you if they took interest in sheep? Or are they trained to obey a whistle? Either way, how reliable would their obedience be if they wanted to do something different? This is not the same as your dogs fortunately not being interested in sheep etc, it's about whether you can you control them if they are wanting to do something different from what you want.🐕

I have lived rurally for most of my life. I have also owned, lived with or walked other people's dogs for most of my life. I used to look after a small flock of sheep, and one was killed by a dog. I've also seen the photos on a farmer's phone following a dog attack that left a number of sheep dead and others injured. I have a strong stomach, but I couldn't look at them all.

On open moorland, I would let my dogs off-lead so long as sheep were not in within 100-200m. Both of my dogs have been trained around sheep, and generally ignore them completely - unless I'm saying hello and feeding grass through the fence to a couple of pet sheep we sometimes pass on walks (and before anyone has a go, I have the okay from the owner to do so). Then they might come over for a quick sniff.

But even with my own dogs, I would put them on a lead in a field of sheep. Not because I think they will chase. But because:
I have respect for the farmer, who doesn't need the stress of looking out of the tractor cab while spraying in the field next door, and seeing off-lead dogs around the stock;
Sometimes even the best-trained dogs might go off-piste - they might decide to hoon around playing, for example, and even a few seconds of that could set a flock off running
Sheep are at a higher density on fenced lowland pasture, so it's harder to give them a wide berth. My dogs are not going to start chasing, but the sheep don't know that.

The only exception to this would be if I had the farmer's permission, for the purposes of stock training my dogs, or refreshing it if I felt it might be useful.

If you walk in the countryside, and even if you never plan to let your dogs off-lead where there are sheep, PLEASE stock-train them. Leads break and get yanked out of hands. Sheep are absolute escape artists, and also very skilled at concealing themselves in shade or in hollows or behind patches of bracken and brambles, so you can scan a field and think, 'Great, no sheep', and let Fido off... This happened to someone I know slightly, and her dogs spent 20 minutes running riot in a field of sheep.

@BlibBlabBlob
I actually think it should be illegal to have dogs in a field with livestock at all, especially at this time of year. That'd be a clear rule, and keep all animals safe.
I don't see how that would work on farms criss-crossed by footpaths. It would mean fencing off footpaths, which would chop up fields into smaller segments and would be very costly, or redirecting footpaths, which isn't always feasible. Also sometimes livestock is only on a field every few years - sheep on stubble turnips, for example.

Just... control your dogs.

Quote "I am also a responsible dog owner. I’m not an arrogant one and I make consistent dynamics risk assessments on what is appropriate.
Being too rigid is how people get in to trouble"

You are NOT a responsible dog owner. You ARE an arrogant one and you take risks with farm animals and wildlife. I suspect this is mostly lazyness, it takes a little bit of effort to have the dogs on leads, 99.9% of people make this effort, it's just the ones who think that they are special that don't, truth is they are just lazy.

You are also setting a bad example to other dog owners who may think, well, those dogs are off the lead, why shouldn't mine be.

Just about every week we read reports of animals, elderley and children being attacked and injured or even killed by offlead dogs, the owners, each and every one of them say "Oh he's never done that before or I'd trust my childrens lives with him etc etc".

Arrogant, irresponsible idiots.

We really need a requirement for people to have licenses to own pets and to be held accountable for their pets actions.

Op you are arrogant. You think your right to keep your dogs off lead trumps the right of the sheep and the farmers and of anyone else courteous enough to actually leash their animals. You think nothing can ever go wrong because you know best and you are so clever and correct that it would never happen on your watch. That is arrogance.

I have a border collie who was kicked off the farm due to his lack of interest in sheep. He sticks to my side, but I will always have him on a lead around livestock as it's just not worth the risk.

Presumably it can't be the law that all dogs are on leads in fields with livestock as sheep farmers have to be able to let their sheepdogs off the lead to be able to work.

Why not just keep your dogs on leads in sheep fields out of respect for the farmer, if other arguments don't float your boat?

I don't live in an area like yours, but even I know that sheep farming is a tough life and is part of what keeps the Lake District's landscape, heritage and economy going. Why risk pissing off the farmers?

Fine, carry on! Until the day your dog behaves out of character, chases a sheep, decides it's having too much fun, with the inevitable consequences.

My dog has good recall, is more cautious of sheep than interested in bothering them, even on a long lead near livestock she’ll glue herself to my side. But she’s on a lead round livestock, it’s just not worth it. When all said and done, she’s a dog. Sometimes instincts and fear will overcome the best training. I work on the principle it’s cruel of me to put her in that position where she could fail.

Well that's a minute or two of time I'll never get back.
Thought it might be an interesting debate but it's descended into a pile on and a boasting competition which is a shame.

I wouldn't have faith in my dog (especially not my current one) or my training abilities to do as OP does. Also, pp makes a good point essentially saying you should set an example but OP is right to say an off-lead dog isn't necessarily out of control just as much as an on-lead dog isn't necessarily in control.
I saw a woman the other day floored by an off-lead dog but the dog was running up to her on-lead dog who was going bananas. People innit?

Actually yes, on lead doesn’t always mean in control- that has reminded me of the tiny lady near us who used to be seen walking a massive Great Dane, there was no hope in hell she could have restrained that dog if it went for livestock, as it was she always looked like she was being dragged down the street.

But don’t set your pup up to fail. A extended lead would be enough to give your dog a bit of freedom to sniff around near you.

(and I also prefer to have dog off lead as much as possible, makes walking better for both of us, just not round sheep.)