Need your HELP with choosing the right breed!!!

[YourRubyHiker]

Hi all,

I really really need someone else’s input here as I feel like I’m going in circles.
my husband finally agreed on getting a dog for our family (two kids, 8&3). He was adamant that he liked cocker spaniels. We researched the breed and talked to the owners of the ones we knew. Ended up putting a £100 deposit on a puppy (mum’s parents working cockers and dad is a show cocker). Now the more I learn about gundogs the more I get worried that we won’t be able to provide our puppy with adequate training. They seem such hard work, everyone says to do scent work, super long walks (no problem, I can walk it 2h a day) and they are like boys with ADHD (as in don’t listen, recall is hard work, adult distracted and pull on the lead).

I really wanted a Cavapoo (health tested parents of course!). Small-ish, cuddly, easy to train and generally a calm teddy bear for my kids to snuggle with.

Proper getting cold feet now. It’s not too late change it, the spaniel puppy will find a home no problem - his sisters were taken the same day the ad was published.

I’m planning on taking our dog to puppy classes. I’m planning on crate training (initially at least - mainly to provide a safe space away from kids). We can walk our dog 2x day for 40min/ hour and we have a big garden. My kids would love playing with it and I can do 15/20 min training every day.

Has anyone got experience with either breed? Any advice?

Neither. Working cockers are not for first time owners and cavapoos aren’t a breed so any puppy is likely to be badly bred at best and puppy farmed at worst.

In your shoes I wouldn’t get any dog until you’ve done some more research and certainly not until
your youngest is in school. Nobody should be getting a dog as a “calm teddy bear to snuggle”.

Agree to disagree. I’ve specified that we’re not only getting a dog for snuggling (who doesn’t like a doggie snuggle?). I’ve specified how much work we can do every day. I’ve had dogs before (a Maltese, a bichon friese & a yorkie) and these are great to snuggle with.

Oh dear. I see this going very very wrong 🫣

I love cocker spaniels. A well bred cocker is a delight. Friendly, energetic, biddable, velcro dogs. Not guaranteed to be a cuddler though. The people who slag them off are usually people who have never owned them.

However, I do have serious doubts about your chosen breeder. Are both parents fully health tested? Not just a vet check to say they are fit. Does the breeder own both dogs? Or have they taken the time to research the best mate for their bitch's lines? I doubt that is the case since they have breed a worker to a show. IMO no reputable breeder would cross a show strain with a working strain. There is absolutely no reason to do it - other than you own both dogs and want to make money from them.
I would advise you to look into the differences between the two strains and decide which one suits your lifestyle best. Then find a reputable breeder of that strain.

As I said, a well bred cocker is a fantastic little dog. Unfortunately, there are a lot of back yard breeders and puppy farmers churning them out too. Those are the ones more likely to have issues.

I fairness, a lot of dogs really enjoy cuddling up with the humans: I have working line gundogs (one of whom does actually work) and they'll come and request that you join them on the sofa. The working-line dog we used to have loved the DC and would offer solace and sympathy when they felt sad.

What I would say is that working-line dogs, esp spaniels, are bloody hard work. Give them what they need - exercise, training, boundaries, mental stimulation appropriate to their breeding - and they are absolutely wonderful. Miss out any of that, and it can be an absolute disaster for the people and the dog. Have you got half an hour a day, 6 days a week, for regular play and training sessions? You sure? Have you got the mental energy? Is there a decent gundog trainer near you who can offer help and advice?

I know the puppy you have looked at is half show, but you don't know which side he'll take after. There is a constant parade across this board of the distraught owners of working-bred cockers and sprockers, tearing their hair out at their dogs' behaviour. Yes, it can work - but if it doesn't, it can be very messy.

What if the dog you get is not a cuddler? Not all dogs are. I've had two dogs of the same breed, one would sit and cuddle all day, the other hated to "snuggle". There is no way to guarantee a "snuggler". Getting a live puppy for a three year old to cuddle and play with is only going to end in tears.

There is a world of difference between the energy levels of a cocker and a Maltese/Bichon/Yorkie. Really no comparison. A responsible spaniel breeder would not place a pup in a home with kids that young, particularly a male dog from working bloodlines.

If you think you know what to expect from Maltese/Bichon/Yorkie then probably reconsider those and think about a spaniel when the kids are teens.

@YourRubyHiker you are being woefully naive. Not all dogs, even 'family friendly' ones like to be cuddled.

And no good breeder will sell to you with a child that young. So you'll be getting from a dodgy, probably puppy-farm, breeder with defective, sickly, expensive dogs.

But, by all means, crack on.

Thanks for your replies @BigBrownTabby @EdithStourton @SpanielsGalore! and for immeasurable advice!

Whist I can definitely do 20/30 min training every day 7 days a week (I don’t work, DH WFH - mind you, we’re talking basic training. I don’t have mental capacity for a schedule of different types of enrichment activities), I appreciate what you said about working spaniels! All videos of puppy trainers online are usually of spaniels. I guess because they do need a lot of specialist work.

I wish we kind of stopped focusing on snuggling aspect. In no way shape or form I said I was getting a dog for my 3 year old to play dolly with. I said I like the idea of a snuggly bear (as in the look of it) and I appreciate that dogs like children have different temperament even within the breed.
I’m not averse to getting an actual poodle. I just like the look of cavapoos. And yes, I guess I was lucky before that my dogs liked to snuggle.

Totally agree with the first part of your post. I grew up with cocker spaniels. They are gun dogs who belong in the fields with experienced owners (yes even the show ones albeit to a lesser extent). I see so many in London and op, you are spot on, they are like teenage boy with ADHD (I have one). I would never have a cocker with very young children. Well I will never have one again because I live in London and do not have hours per day to train the dog, and I mean hours. It is a lifestyle.

@warmapplepies I politely disagree with you that a dog should not be a live teddy bear. I know what you mean though, a dog is not for Christmas. My toy breed dog is a live teddy bear. She sleeps with me, cuddles on the sofa like a baby and is treated like a princess. For me, this suits me much better than the cockers I grew up with because I live in London and just need a companion really that can walk on the common without pissing everyone off.

If you are calculating how many minutes of a day you can walk a dog and how many minutes you can train it (I'm not sure now if that's 15/20 minutes or 20/30) minutes, you must be very busy.

In my experience a puppy is a huge time commitment. All day. Night and day.

Your husband doesn't sound 100% into this and to be honest, an 8 & 3 year old aren't going to be wanting to go on regular dog walks. This is all going to be on you.

Are you sure this is right for the dog or for your family now OP?

A purebred poodle or Bichon is a better choice than a cross. A poodle that isn't very close clipped or shaved does give you the teddy bear look. There has been a photo of one on a puppy thread recently, and it's adorable.

I train working dogs, specifically WCS. I also re-train WCS with issues.
They are working dogs, they need breed specific gundog training plus training around walking on lead etc.
They are highly intelligent, high energy + high prey drive breed so not suitable for your average family scenario. So many develop separation anxiety, resource guarding and behaviour issues because they aren't getting the right training and exercise routines

As an idea, they are bred to WORK outdoors for approx 6 hours per day in all weather. They are the Ferrari of the dog world. They make great pets if their needs are being met but it can go wrong fast.

And do not forget the grooming. It is criminal to shave a cocker. They need to be properly stripped. My mum used to do it herself. It took the best part of the day. Then the ears... they pick everything on walks. If you are not careful it goes inside the ear and boom infection.

Look, in my opinion, they are wonderful dogs. BUT they have been so inbred for decades now that you will seriously struggle to find a good one. Cocker spaniels belong to people who truly know what they are doing and who have the space, the time and the knowledge to know what to do. It is like buying a Formula 1 car as a family car.

Perhaps a full show cocker might suit? But even then, you might end up with a completely bonkers one (lovely, but bonkers). I have 2 - both in the show line. One is so calm and relaxed; the other is all action, all day. Both were easy to train, lovely with children and both love a cuddle. But both need a good amount of exercise daily, and training is ongoing.

I have an utterly wonderful working cocker – she was my first dog as an adult and she’s perfect. She was easy to train for the very most part, is a superb cuddler, very affectionate, and she does work a bit too. She gets everything she needs in her life and more and is doted on by everyone she meets. I’ve done it mostly on my own as my partner works away but we don’t have kids so it’s just her and me a lot of the time.

She has 90-120 minutes exercise a day on average but they are proper walks. She is very rarely walked on a lead – we can go for days without even putting her lead on at all – and almost all of her walks are extremely enriching for her specific needs: looking for and flushing game, and hunting, all of which she has been taught to do safely. We used to see a gundog trainer a fair bit, and now only from time to time. I have mostly taught her myself and she works a little bit in the season too. She goes to ‘nursery’ occasionally if I need her to – though I WFH most of the time – and is a super star there and with all dogs she meets. She doesn’t guard, she doesn’t bark, she doesn’t chew things that aren’t hers. She helps me hang the washing out! She is genuinely a total pleasure to spend time with and she’s now almost 2.5.

Is it easy? Occasionally no, but mostly yes. Why? Because I have put the work in with her. Spaniels will give you 100x back what you put in but you have to put the effort in and you have to understand the spaniel mind. My girl checks that I’m definitely sure when I ask her to do something – she’s not an undying slave like a Labrador. Don’t get one unless you’re willing to commit to that. It’s not fair on the dog and it’s not fair on you either.

People will tell you that they need eight hours of walking a day – they don’t. They just need good, enriching walks or training, and they need someone who is prepared to do the reading and the learning and who is willing to understand the dog in front of them. If you’re up for that and you have time for it, get a spaniel. If not, don’t.

(edited for punctuation)

Things are probably not as bad as you think. I’ve had gundogs all my adult life and my daughter now has a cocker spaniel and a cockapoo. Both are happy, biddable family dogs.

if you decide to go ahead, I highly recommend the Facebook Dog Training Advice and Support page. It is run by professional behaviourists and they publish excellent guidelines. They are also available for individual advice if required.

A spaniel would be a big no from me! We look after a friend’s spaniel when they go away and it needs far too much attention, training and stimulation! Luckily I have older children who can help. We went with an older (7) rescue as he was already house trained and is frankly very lazy…. But I still walk him 1.5-2 hours a day.

I really really wouldn’t get a cocker with small children, their proclivity to resource guard is through the roof (just have a click through on spaniel aid to see how many have been rehomed due to snapping at someone because of it).

Id go for a proper cavalier, lovely dogs that aren’t the complete couch potato that some toy breeds are. There is a very good Facebook group for them with a lady who runs the breed club who is excellent at helping people find extensivley health tested puppies

@SeaAndStars my point about the live teddy bear is that people shouldn’t be getting dogs based on how cute and fluffy they are. My own (working breed) absolutely loves a cuddle and is super affectionate to humans but he’s also an individual with needs and if he didn’t want to cuddle I would need to respect that (and ensure any children respected that too, which is harder!)

Ok, thanks again for everyone’s input! It appears I have been certainly very naive! I get the general consensus is that it’s best not to get a WCS with a small child and that they do need a lot of specialist gun dog training in order to be fulfilled. I really wouldn’t want to make my dog unhappy.

I agree on principal. When my family stopped shooting we moved from cockers to cavaliers. They are on paper the best breed for children. So kind and gentle. I find them a bit boring personally because they are that nice but finding a decent one will be very very hard. They are inbred, badly, even the show ones. All of ours except 1 had issues and they were from the best breeders. I would not touch them sadly for that reason.

You can pick up a cavalier or an Italian greyhound for a cuddle even if there are not totally up for it, which the ones I know would be anyway. Try and cuddle a cocker who doesn’t want it, you will get bitten. Children will do that so safer to get a toy breed.

And yourself! It is hard enough to have 2 young children. Get a toy breed, nice and gentle who can walk for short periods or longer if you can. Not fear to leave the children with dogs. Yes I know you shouldn’t but let’s be real you cannot have eyes in the back of your head. My Italian greyhound sleeps with the children under the duvet. My cavaliers used to do that too… it’s a cuddle fest and we love it!

Just because you can, it doesn't mean you should.

What you should do is respect your dog's boundaries and not force it into uncomfortable situations.
Any dog can bite when it's manhandled against its will.

Of course you are correct. But children will do it particularly younger ones who are not old enough to not do what they have been told not to do. My point is that you cannot always be watching and the likelihood of being bitten by a cavalier is very very low compared to a cocker. In fact, I do not know a single cavalier that has bitten anyone, I know several cockers that have bitten children, all wanted cuddles.