Beyond Adolescence - a thread to chat about grown up dogs, cake and anything else, excluding coffee.

[SpanielsGalore]

Not going to tag everyone as I don't know who wants to join. Welcome everyone. 😁

I have had two roofers here this morning. After the initial barking at heads appearing over the ridge, the dogs have been so good. They've sat in the garden and watched them working. Greeted them every time they came into the garden and didn't once try to bolt out of the gate. I heard one of the men telling them to 'stay' as he struggled through the gate with a bucket full of water, and then telling them they were 'good dogs'.
They've just finished and as they were leaving one commented on how calm my dogs are and not like 'normal spaniels'. See. Not all working cockers are 'high on crack' and 'manic'. 😇😇😇

Beautiful weather here today. 🌞 I unexpectedly got my car back yesterday. 🥳
Off to the woods to walk the adolescent nutter until she collapses in a heap. 😂

@SpanielsGalore may I redeem myself by telling you I will be baking a lemon drizzle cake today with no nuts in it? 😂

I was quite proud of him. I managed about 4 times in a short walk to stop him bolting to other dogs - there was also a group of young(ish) girls sat in the middle of the field minding their own business and having a little picnic type affair and I stopped him bothering them too. It’s a hard one because in most instances I think I should just put him on the lead to avoid him running over to people/dogs but then how can I train him not to run over if I do that I suppose 🤷‍♀️

Poor P! Sorry to hear there has been no improvement so far but fingers crossed you will see an improvement in her soon. And hopefully the weather will improve for you today.
Windy walks with Pablo were fun, he seemed to enjoy it weirdly. Although I don’t think it has been as bad here in the midlands as other places in the UK.

@CoubousAndTourmaIet luckily no damage here - even my bins remained in situ for a change!

Glad you had a nice afternoon with your visitors and that Brie was an angel. It can be tough being so close to the ‘detail’ so to speak - you’ll overthink everything because you’re so close to her and you care so much but then when other people see a happy, healthy dog with a lovely temperament it can be a real boost!

@tizwozliz I was hoping you’d got some meatballs for yourself 😂 I love IKEA food - ha! Even the coffee is decent in there (sorry @SpanielsGalore 😂)
Pablo loves diving under the shelves in pets at home too. It’s like all his Christmases have come at once in there. Dogs, people, food. What more can a Labrador want 😂
Hope you all enjoy your swim!

@VanGoSunflowers
It sounds as if you're making an enormous amount of progress with Pablo's training at the moment. Not running up to ask for a fuss from people is very impressive from such a young dog! Is he still a puppy or are you crossing that boundary into adolescence now...?

My visitors included a working vet (my cousins older daughter) and two vet students (the younger daughter and her boyfriend), that's why I have such a mixture of apprehension and relief when they visit! It's also great because they love Brie and she has total trust in them. They're really the only people we could trust to look after her for us in an emergency, so it makes me happy that she has such a good bond with them.
I know I'm very fortunate to have that; although we have our own local vet for Brie, I can have a second opinion from somebody who not only knows her well but gets to spend more than just a 10 or 15 minute consultation time with her. I know few people have this and it's never something I take for granted, but they're lovely people, and their mum is my closest friend as well as being my cousin, so seeing them with Brie means the world to me.

@CoubousAndTourmaIet thank you for the kind comment! Encouragement is very much appreciated 😊 I’m not sure about adolescence, yet. He will be 6 months old in a few days so perhaps but I’m not sure how I would know? I bet the answer will be something along the lines of ‘trust me, you will know’ 😂

Even better when that reassurance comes from people who work with animals and see dozens of dogs every week! It’s great to hear you have the perfect support network should you need it! And that Brie loves them too ☺️

I suppose for most of us adolescence starts at around 7 or 8 months, although you still see the puppy in them for much longer than that @VanGoSunflowers

It isn't as obvious as "trust me you will know" because although some puppies become boisterous and headstrong, others don't really change or have much an obvious adolescent period at all. I suppose it's like puberty in humans; some kids go through a difficult or rebellious phase but others don't. So you might not notice anything with Pablo, or it could become hard work for a while.

Weirdly, although most people say boy dogs are worse, the hardest adolescence for me has been with Brie. She is still challenging me far more than any of the others did. I don't know if I got things wrong somehow, or if she's just a particularly headstrong character. Either way, it was at around 7 months that the puppy blues kicked in for me and for a few weeks I had that "wtf have I done?" feeling. I love her again now, but that phase was a struggle with her compared to the previous two (both male) at that age. So it definitely varies from one dog to another.

@CoubousAndTourmaIet thank you for sharing your experience with me!
I have noticed he is far more confident than he ever has been, is definitely a little more boisterous as well but hasn’t stopped listening to commands - if anything he seems to be responding to them faster and with more confidence than before. So it may be that it’s not hit him yet or that the confidence is coming out in a different way if that makes sense. I don’t know if this has anything to do with it as I always thought this was a hormonal thing but he doesn’t scent mark or cock his leg when he wees bless him. I also definitely KNOW when he needs a walk these days - whereas before we just did two walks a day as standard, now when I know he is due for one he starts to get a little mouthy and more energetic 😂

I do think I have been very lucky with him rather than it being anything I have done. I think he is an unusually biddable dog maybe? Perhaps that’s his breed or his personality or both. But I’ve just kind of muddled through so far 😂

I doubt you got anything ‘wrong’ with Brie - as you say, it’s probably just her own unique character coming out! Do you mind if I ask what behaviours Brie was exhibiting at that age that you found the most challenging?

It sounds as if you're reading his behaviours very well and that's definitely a positive. The better you know and understand your dog, the more likely you are to notice tiny changes that can indicate a problem. @SpanielsGalore gave the perfect illustration of this with P when she picked up on a slight alteration to foot position.

Pablo will probably start leg cocking/scent marking soon. Brie starting scent marking at around a year, which is also when she had her first season. She doesn't leg cock yet although two of our previous bitches did. I can't remember when our boys started leg cocking.

The adolescent behaviour with Brie mostly centred around lead walking. She was, and still is, very calm and well mannered at home, but at 6,7,8 months she was jumping up, lead biting, pulling towards other dogs. Basically she was just dragging me all over the place. It was really having an effect on me mentally and I had lost confidence. So we've worked really hard on the lead walking, that has been our main focus. Since changing over to a hound style harness and martingale with a double ended lead, we seem to have made a lot of progress with regard to pulling. Unfortunately, she still bites the lead, but only in a couple of specific locations on our walk, so we're kind of managing it.
She is stronger and more boisterous than all our others aside from the fourth boy who was very similar... But she has girl PMD attitude and answers back whereas the boys were quieter, so she's our biggest hooligan for sure 😆

@VanGoSunflowers I think K hit adolescnce around 7 months old. With her, it's only been a case of recall going out the window and ranging further on walks.
P never had an adolescence. She went from absolutely vile puppy to perfect adult. 😇

Not dog related at all - DS flew out on deployment this morning. I am ridiculously upset that I didn't get to say good bye and wish him a safe flight. 😭 I chatted to him yesterday, but didn't realise his flight was so early today. I woke up to messages telling me he'd left.
The rational side of me says he's only gone for 6 weeks, I'll hear from him once he's got a SIM card sorted and he'll have a lovely time living my safari dream.
But for today, my irrational side is winning.

Was it Estonia he was heading off to @SpanielsGalore ? You say 'safari dreams' but, for some reason, I have Estonia on my mind! Six weeks is barely a blip though, so he'll be back before you know it!😊

I'm sorry to hear P still isn't feeling 100% 😞

@LandSharksAnonymous No he's in Kenya, probably moaning about the heat. 🙄Estonia is next year. When no doubt he'll moan about the cold. I've told him he's a Goldilocks soldier.

@SpanielsGalore glad to know I am not losing my marbles! Kenya though...I have to say I agree with him, it's a bit too hot. Does he get clothing provision out there? I feel like the military operates differently to the diplomatic service and you don't (we do - it's not much, but for example if you're off to Mongolia you get enough for a decent winter coat and a nice fur hat).

Speaking of travel, and finally slightly doggy related, I just booked my late-winter get-away. DMum will take DDs for two weeks (which means when I come back they'll both have spent two weeks having strawberries & meringue for breakfast and steak and chips for dinner, and will refuse to eat anything healthy). DH are I are going to go to Norfolk with the dogs and I am incredibly excited because I get to go to my favourite restaurant in the entire world. Still a good few months away, but I'm already drooling at the thought of British Tapas. 😍

Hope your son gets along okay with the Kenyan climate @SpanielsGalore , think I'd find Estonia more comfortable!

Your planned winter break sounds wonderful @LandSharksAnonymous . Is Baby Eris going or will she be staying with DD's & DM?

And out there in mn world... I think I'm on a different plane regarding dog behaviour. I don't know if I'm very strict and authoritarian without being aware of it, or if it's just that I have different standards from necessity due to the size of my dogs. But I'm shocked at all the downplaying of what I would term antisocial behaviour. Biting, lunging, barking, stealing possessions and growling. I'm not referring to reactivity towards other dogs btw, that's very different, but I'm meaning aggression being shown towards people. I couldn't (wouldn't) tolerate this from my dogs, and I'm having a hard time thinking of it as normal. But seemingly people do.

@CoubousAndTourmaIet Eris will be coming! The restaurants we go to tend to be dog friendly, so it's a good chance to practice her manners in a new place! It's always a nightmare trying to find holiday cottages that allow so many dogs, so we always go to the same place when we go (I say we, this is the first time DH has been able to come in about three years...).

100% agree re. these behaviours. The only time I will be able to 'accept' a dog bite is when a dog has been tormented, or had it's boundaries repeatedly ignored, and it finally snaps. And usually it's only ever one bite (as I see so often in the rescues we get in).

I am, like you, increasingly seeing people normalise their dog's behaviour and it is actually terrifying. I think people seriously under-estimate the amount of damage a dog - even a small one - can do. And it's never acceptable to think your dog's antisocial behaviour is normal because of 'some' circumstance or external factor (like wind or being in a communal space). And normalising it, and thus allowing your dog to intimidate people, is unacceptable.

I've always said, if one of my dogs bit and the vet could not find a reason for the bite (pain, discomfort etc), I would put to sleep. I would spend every penny I have to try and find something, but if there was nothing to be found...how could I trust that dog again?

I think we are different to lots of other people just because our dogs are bigger so the risk is greater if they did snap. But I don't think size really makes a difference - a bite is a bite. And, as you say, reactivity is very different to aggression.

Tbh, mumsnet does a very very good job of reminding me why I am so strict about who I do sell a dog to. Lots of people, who seem to think they know a lot about dogs and are good owners...really aren't.

Is this the thread about the tiny dog that bit someone? I've not read it yet, so don't want to speak out of turn, but as the possessor of a nobhead, there's quite a range of emotional stuff that can underlie barking, lunging, growling etc. I feel very sorry for frightened dogs that get treated like they're misbehaving when they bark.

Bill isn't often frightened, just very easily and highly aroused, and there's almost no help out there for that - even the best online trainers say things like 90% of reactivity is due to fear, which may be true but really isn't helpful when you know your nobhead isn't particularly afraid of things, he just goes from 0 to 180mph in seconds.

We are making progress, but it's very slow, and a large part of it is me learning how to manage a very highly arousable high-drive dog - I'm watching Denise Fenzi's webinars right now aimed at sports dogs which are super-helpful. I'm lucky that he's never shown any signs of resource guarding, but given his breeding and how common it is in spaniels, I suspect that's the one thing I've done right - I never take anything from him that he 'steals' or get cross with him for it, as he's not stealing, he's just being a working retriever and picking things up in his mouth, and if I don't want them in his mouth I need to put them away.

Anyway, this isn't to argue it's okay for a dog to bite a person, just to flag that dogs behaving antisocially more generally aren't usually doing it for a lack of manners (well, except mine) - they're overwhelmed by fear or overstimulation.

@Bupster it is that thread. But in that thread, the dog went for someone - completely unprovoked. From what the OP said, the older woman was simply walking past and her dog just attacked her and bit her. Lots of posters are claiming it's either okay, because the dog is small, or because it was windy (and it must have been scared).

I think the point @CoubousAndTourmaIet and I are making (feel free to disagree C&T) is that aggression like that is never excusable for a dog to attack someone like that. And that the owners, of which there have been a lot recently ('it's only a small dog' 'it only does it in shared spaces' 'it only does it in XYZ place'), who minimise aggressive behaviour are really concerning.

You have always made it clear you try with Bill, and you want to help him and you have invested time and effort into being the best owner you can be. That's hugely different to so many of these posters who simply don't seem to care, or make up excuse after excuse. 😞

Just been to read the thread - in fairness the owner is clearly mortified. I do feel sorry for small dogs generally, people often ignore their signals and they're constantly being picked up whether they like it or not. Again not justifying the bite! Windy days can make a dog crazy but not that crazy. I sort of hope you're right in what you say on that thread, and the poor dog's in pain.

@LandSharksAnonymous The holiday place sounds like perfection! And it'll be a great experience for Eris.

You are right about larger breeds being considered higher risk but the principle of it annoys me and there is so much hypocrisy.

And, I've been through it first hand. We had to do it. It was horrendous but we had to do it with our Anatolian because he was in torment with HD and he bit my dad. We couldn't risk him biting a child or an elderly person, so we had to pts. So I understand the temptation to just manage the situation, to find excuses, to justify the behaviour. But you just can't, because unless it's that one snap you describe, of a dog being teased, the problem won't just go away. As you said, they're making excuses about it being windy, the dog being protective (well, mine's a guarding breed ffs) anything but admit that a dog launching itself at a stranger and inflicting a bite is a danger.

I've been very lucky that my own 6 PMD - that is the ones I've had in this house, since living with my chap, have all been healthy, well bred, well adjusted dogs with no real issues. But every day I look at posts on The Doghouse and fail to understand the thinking of some people.
There is literally no way I could comprehend being able to keep Brie if she behaved like some of the toy breeds local to us. I mean it just wouldn't be acceptable for her to bark and growl hysterically at everything, the way they do. Somebody would report us for having a dangerous dog.

So I suppose I see these threads from a different angle. Given our experience with our ASD because a dangerous dog is a dangerous dog, regardless of whether it's a Chihuahua or a Cane Corso. But nobody would ever make excuses for the Cane Corso.

@LandSharksAnonymous I think the important thing there though is you would spend every penny trying to find a reason or cause first. I find it incredibly sad that lots of people have immediately jumped straight to PTS without bothering to investigate first.

I disagree that dogs barking or growling is a sign of aggression. Barks and growls are their way of communicating.
Dogs barking at the postman - lots of dogs bark at the sound of the door bell or someone knocking. N will bark at any visitor for the first ten seconds or so, whilst wagging her tail and greeting them.

P and K both bark at things they are frightened of, presumably in an attempt to tell it to keep away. Neither lunge or show any sign of aggression.

A dog growls to show it is uncomfortable with or in a situation. How else is it meant to communicate? It means it's unhappy or scared. It doesn't necessarily mean it's aggressive. Obviously resource guarding is a different scenario.

P steals socks and slippers. K steals toilet rolls. My sprocker stole everything he could reach. I can/could take everyhing back off them. If I don't want them to get something, it's my job to put it out of reach.

I had a fear reactive cocker. He barked and lunged at people and dogs. He never bit anyone, but he was always muzzled in public. I tried to walk him in isolated places so he wasn't put into situations that would cause him to react. Trips to the vets were a nightmare. However, inside the home he was the best, softest family dog. He never showed any aggression to us and I never once thought he would bite any of my children. We had him since 8 weeks old and he became fear aggressive at around 1 year old. Should we have had him put down because he couldn't cope with the outside world?

Which isn't to say reactivity is normal. No one wants a reactive dog. We all envisage geting a dog and going for relaxing walks and days out.

But when you have a dog that turns out to be reactive, I hope you do your best to help them cope with the world rather than jumping to PTS.
Perhaps you need to walk a mile in a reactive dog owners shoes to understand. It's easy to say PTS when it's not a dog you love.

@SpanielsGalore Satan was reactive, I’ve mentioned this before. I absolutely know how hard having reactive dog is.

But some of these dogs discussed recently (the ones @CoubousAndTourmaIet and I are referencing) aren’t reactive in my eyes, they’re aggressive. Lunging and snapping at people, is very different to barking out of fear - at least in my eyes.

I think you have slightly misunderstood the point we were making. People on these threads is leaping to defend the indefensible - and justifying the behaviour (‘it’s windy’) which is just awful. This wasn’t a dog that was scared, or reactive, it literally just went for someone walking past for no reason.

And as you, and Bupster have done, and as @CoubousAndTourmaIet did and as we’ve done with Satan…we’ve all taken steps to fix this behaviour, or manage it the best we can. Too many people seem not to do that, and that’s what is worrying.

Yes, @LandSharksAnonymous , it's absolutely the minimising, the normalising and the thousand and one excuses.
We loved our reactive Anatolian very much but he was a danger and unlike with a small dog you cannot just make the decision to live with it.

With my Pyreneans, I absolutely would not be okay with them growling or barking in a threatening way and @SpanielsGalore the difference between barking at the doorbell and play growling, compared to using threatening body language is immense. There is no similarity whatsoever.

I wish you & @Bupster had taken my comments in context which related to a dog that "launched itself" at an elderly passer by and bit her. There are no excuses, I'm sorry if the dog was spooked by the wind or any one of a million other things, but a fear biter is dangerous, regardless of size or breed or circumstances.

@LandSharksAnonymous My cocker was fear aggressive. He would have bitten someone if he had been given the opportunity, but his environment was managed so he didn't.

I don't know why that dog bit someone. And neither does anyone on that thread, including the owner as she wasn't looking. I'm sure it had its own reason for doing so. Which is in no way saying it is acceptable behaviour. Of course it isn't. I'd get it vet checked to make sure it isn't in pain and keep it on lead in public, possibly muzzled. I wouldn't however, have it PTS. Not for a first incident.

@CoubousAndTourmaIet If your Anatolian was in so much pain he had resorted to biting, then PTS was the kindest thing you could do for him. Likewise I made the decision to have my sprocker put to sleep when he was only 3 years old, because he was in constant pain. He wasn't aggressive towards people, but he did attack P so that she was frightened of him.
I didn't read the whole dog bite thread. I did read Landsharks first reply, where I think she said get the dog vet checked and keep it muzzled. I would agree with that advice. It went downhill after that for me.
And I read your comment discussing what owners view as aggression, which said 'barking at the postman ......would not be acceptable behaviour from my dogs'. You didn't mention threatening body language then. Which is why I made my earlier comment about N barking at the door and my not seeing it as aggressive.

I'm not saying that the dog biting is acceptable or justifiable. It isn't and the owner needs to take steps to ensure it doesn't happen again. I don't think it warrants a death sentence though.
Unfortunately smaller dogs are always going to get away with more 'anti-social' behaviours than big dogs. Purely because it's easier to hang on to a lunging terrier than it is a Great Dane. And my muzzled sprocker was viewed more favourably than a muzzled doberman. People are breedist/sizest.

I am rambling now, so I will shut up.

@SpanielsGalore
Firstly, I said absolutely nothing relating to that tiny dog being pts, and I have no idea why I've now twice been accused of saying that. I only said that in my view biting a random stranger is not acceptable behaviour from any dog, which it shouldn't be. It is antisocial. But someone took issue with that by saying "what is acceptable?".

Secondly, barking at the door would not be deemed as being acceptable behaviour from my dog(s), no. I have not allowed any of them to rush to the door and bark. Because from a 50 or 60 kg dog that can be viewed as threatening to a delivery person who is doing their job. It may not seem aggressive to you, but I personally do not want my dogs to do it. I like them to be calm when people knock or visit. I did stress not acceptable from my dogs. But in actual fact I haven't ever really had to actively do anything to stop them. They've all understood that the postie or a courier comes to the door with stuff and they've never been fussed about it.

I also said that I wouldn't find it acceptable for them to growl at me in possession of an item, I don't know quite what the issue is with saying that. Resource guarding is surely not desirable for any dog... but again I stressed from my dogs. I've so far managed to avoid it by working on it from the start.

I haven't responded to @Bupster because I'm not sure what she was trying to say other than to imply that I have no understanding of dog behaviour or fear/anxiety/overstimulation, purely on the basis of me making a comment about a thread that she admitted she hadn't read. I'm not bothering to defend myself or my opinions on that, it's clearly pretty pointless.

@CoubousAndTourmaIet
Firstly, I haven't said you said the dog should be PTS. I have reread my post twice and I can't find why you think I have. Obviously a dog biting a stranger is unacceptable behaviour. Surely no one disagrees with that.

Secondly, my dogs aren't allowed to rush the door either. They are all put behind a stairgate. My foster dog is the only one that barks. So we both view it as undesirable behaviour. The difference of opinion is in your use of the word 'aggressive'.
A barking dog isn't necessarily an aggressive dog. I would look at the rest of their body language in order to determine that. N barks at visitors, but no one has ever thought she is aggressive.

Thirdly, I specifically said growling due to resource guarding was entirely different to growling to communicate they were uncomfortable with a situation. Obviously resource guarding is an undesirable behaviour. But if a dog growls at me in any situation, I am going to listen to it, whether it is desirable behaviour or not.