Beyond Adolescence - a thread to chat about grown up dogs, cake and anything else, excluding coffee.

[SpanielsGalore]

Not going to tag everyone as I don't know who wants to join. Welcome everyone. 😁

I have had two roofers here this morning. After the initial barking at heads appearing over the ridge, the dogs have been so good. They've sat in the garden and watched them working. Greeted them every time they came into the garden and didn't once try to bolt out of the gate. I heard one of the men telling them to 'stay' as he struggled through the gate with a bucket full of water, and then telling them they were 'good dogs'.
They've just finished and as they were leaving one commented on how calm my dogs are and not like 'normal spaniels'. See. Not all working cockers are 'high on crack' and 'manic'. 😇😇😇

Beautiful weather here today. 🌞 I unexpectedly got my car back yesterday. 🥳
Off to the woods to walk the adolescent nutter until she collapses in a heap. 😂

Sorry I was AWOL, but had my final therapy session this morning so I was busy writing my notes last night.

Okay. You're not letting this one go, are you?
You can quote me until you're blue in the face and the answer will still be the same, I'm afraid.

This:
I think it depends on the owner and what they view as aggression. To me, barking at the postman or growling in possession of an item would not be acceptable behaviour from my dogs.

I don't think you are giving any consideration to the fact that I have a LGD and their behaviour is very, very different from that of a gundog. They aren't habit barkers, they don't bark in fun or for the hell of it, they bark as a warning, to scare off predators, it's what they're bred to do. None of ours have ever barked at the postie because they don't see it as a threat, but this is why I said it would not be acceptable behaviour from my dogs. It just wouldn't. I would view it as them being intimidating and yes, okay, if you want that word, unnecessarily aggressive by their standards,* *because responding to every little thing is not normal behaviour for my dog(s). Their barking is selective. They know the postie comes almost every day and they don't need to bark. If a stranger is lurking outside at night, they would let rip, but neighbour putting the bin out is fine.

I stand by exactly what I said because it relates to my opinion about my very good natured and non aggressive dog(s) and what I see as acceptable/normal.

My recommendations for lead walking: @VanGoSunflowers @YorkshireFelix @Zippedydodah

Do more of it. 5 or 10 minutes is not enough for good, consistent lead training.

No treats. Because treats are a distraction. For good lead walking you need focus. If the only way to stop them pulling is to put them into a sit and give a treat, you are just reinforcing that behaviour.

Heel is not the natural position for lead walking. Off lead yes, but for lead walking, no. Dogs shoulder level with your leg (or in my case, hip) so the dogs head is slightly in front of you. This position will serve you well for both loose lead and close control.

Double ended lead is great, I use an 8 foot one for everyday with hound harness and martingale collar. Use the lead two handed like reins on a baby.

Useful commands for lead walking - "wait" for junctions, then "okay" to continue. If they start pulling, I use "slowly" and pull back firmly but slowly on the front end of the lead, as sort of gentle braking. After a while they do get it.

Bear in mind that my dog weighs more than I do and I'm an old lady, so there are reasons why her lead walking needs to be exemplary. I'm not a dog trainer, but these are my methods. I hope they might be helpful to some extent.

Off out for a walk now, will try to catch up later with what I've missed x

I have made notes. 😂

@VanGoSunflowers DS only joined in January. This is his first over seas deployment. He likes some parts of it, but not the petty discipline side (like losing your week end off, because you didn't clean your windows well enough).

I don't know if the stories are true or not, but he's been told that someone was trampled to death by an elephant last year. I've told him if an elephant charges you are supposed to stand your ground and not run. He said he'd take his chances of not being the slowest one in his platoon.

I wouldn't worry about P becoming a nuisance in the home when he reaches adolescence. None of mine changed indoors or started stealing stuff. K has always stolen toilet rolls, but nothing else. P will pinch socks and slippers. My sprocker stole everything he could for his whole life. So IMO stealers will steal whatever their age.

@Zippedydodah Welcome. You aren't butting in at all. It's a discussion thread for anyone who wants to join in. I'm not much help on the lead walking issue though. I tried to describe my method yesterday, but I am not committed enough to training it.
Although I am going to take back what I said about an 8kg being manageable. We just went for a walk. She was fine on the way out, but was scrabbling along the floor on the way back.

@LandSharksAnonymous Army pay improves quite a bit for rankers too. I've told him it's the way to go. It's the same with deployments. As he's new, he only gets £7 a day extra. The more days you do, the more you get paid.
I'm sure they'd attract and keep more people if the pay was better. Amazon advertise £180 a day pay for delivery drivers. That works out as at least £15k a year more than DS gets. Seems wrong really. Which isn't to say delivery drivers don't deserve their money. They work bloody long hours. It's more saying how under valued other professions are.

I'd hate to put the dogs in kennels. I enquired once and the dogs spent 23.5 hours a day in a concrete square and had two 15 minute walks a day. K would probably be alright, as she's not really fazed by anything. But P would be a nervous wreck. (N is a foster dog, so she'd go to another fosterer.)

Your poor DD being so ill on a cruise. Could your FIL rejoin the ship or was it the end of his holiday too?

I'm with @brushingboots as regarding walks. I know we have disagreed on it before. I agree it's probably a breed thing. I have no idea how far or fast I walk as I don't have a fitbit or tracker. But my dogs go a lot faster and further than I do. I can stand still and they'll run in circles around me, tracking scents. My friend's dog plods along the path next to her, so she needs to walk faster and further to give him the same amount of exercise.

@SpanielsGalore Yes, someone was trampled to death by an elephant last year – we are recently ex-army so heard all about it and the guy that died was in the same division, though not regiment, as dog-dad used to be. I am glad to be well shot of it all and any threat of any deployments after years of both him and my pa doing it. Will be glad if I never see a pair of combats again though our boot room is full of his various hats and whips and swords!

Re walks – yes, @LandSharksAnonymous, perhaps that’s true. But if it is, it makes me feel all the more certain that I’ll only ever have a spaniel because the idea of actually having to work eight miles on every walk just to get a dog’s steps in does not fill me with any joy at all. Pupsy is super, super fit – ‘perfect,’ per the vet who we popped in to see this morning – and she gets plenty of time to be a feral, free-running creature as well as a well-trained one, but I still prize the interest of the walks over the length. Like @SpanielsGalore sometimes I just stand and wait for her to finish hunting up a patch of ground because the walk is for her enrichment and enjoyment not for the mileage covered.

Only just caught up and read your update @YorkshireFelix , it's great to hear that you've had such an enormous improvement in Vinny's lead walking with the new harness from SpanielsGalore and the Bully Billows ladder lead. As we've said before, it's about finding the combination that works best for each individual dog. Hopefully you can give encouragement to @VanGoSunflowers and you are probably far better placed to advise her than I am.

Sorry but I am totally out of synch with this whole thread atm 🙄

@SpanielsGalore It's ridiculous to be honest. Delivery driver work is rough, but absolutely shouldn't be earning more than a soldier. Once he gets into the ranks he can move into 'MoD' in Whitehall as well which would also be good (MoD military pay for the same CS work) if he wanted to...

Mine would be like P. They'd have to be kept in separate cells as well because whoever ended up sharing with Twatdog might commit doggycide. But they'd also miss each other if they weren't in a shared cell. I do dislike kennels on principle as the ones near me are awful - even though they all claim the dogs get unrestricted access to fields all day (which is absolutely not true)!

FIL came back with her! She was quite young at the time and really upset about 'ruining' the holiday and he didn't want to 'bugger off back and make her feel worse.' Which, in fairness, she absolutely would have done.

@brushingboots it is strange how two breeds that are bred for similar purposes can be so different. If I stand still as you and @SpanielsGalore can do, mine just sit next to me and stare up at me. Twatdog let's out a particularly loud bark of 'stop slacking mummy' if I linger in one spot too long. Once in a blue moon they might sniff something - but usually it's something particularly grim and they get the toothy-chatters after. When Eris was on her first walks it was a nightmare as I wanted to do slow and sniffy for her, and she refused to - even on her solo walks.

@CoubousAndTourmaIet how is Brie doing? I don't know if it's the same up where you are, but it's back to being really warm here. It's due to get up to 20 later this week which feels absolutely insane...

@LandSharksAnonymous I guess yours aren’t bred for that though if they’re show line. There’s a lovely show goldie that lives near us and who we walk with sometimes and she won’t even pick up a ball let alone a dummy. She plays beautifully with pupsy and they box like hares but she is quite gormless in her own very nice way. I don’t know many show cockers but I’m willing to bet that pupsy is considerably more drivey than your average show cocker, just as all the working goldies I know are super drivey too. The only reason I wouldn’t have one is the size, they’re too big for me. Same with a flat coat, though there are so few working lines left now. Lovely but huge.

@brushingboots the other black cocker we walk with sometimes, the owner thinks he is part show cocker despite being sold as working. He is the spit of Vinny but has very fluffy legs like he’s wearing flamenco trousers and a slightly domed head. He is so different personality wise to the WCS I know - just plods along beside her and sniffs around a bit. When you see V next to him the difference is so funny. You can pretty much see the energy fizzing from him comparison 😄 I think V must cover at least triple the amount of distance to him just running back and forth constantly.

It was about 17 and horribly humid here yesterday @LandSharksAnonymous I struggled more than Brie did because the humidity affected my asthma. Not quite as bad today so it was easier.

She was a sodding pain on todays field walk though; walked fine on the road section, but loads of people, kids & dogs on the field, so it was the usual "who's that?" "where are they going?" "what are they doing?" and walking like a snail because she was too busy looking behind her at some random walker.

As you've been talking about what drives your dogs, I'll be honest and say that with mine it's just being a bloody nosy arsed bugger. Nothing more 🙄

@LandSharksAnonymous wow, that sounds absolutely incredible - travelling to Iraq and being able to speak the language! I would imagine that would add so much to a trip like that! What other places have you travelled to that you have enjoyed? I’ve never travelled to the Middle East, apart from the odd layover when I’ve been going somewhere else.
I found travelling around Africa to be a very visceral experience. I think it really gets under your skin, in a good way. Something about how vibrant the landscape is and how laid back all the people were that we met. I remember in particular travelling across Tanzania in the back of this Scania with about 20 other people and the landscape was incredible - flat, bright red earth as far as the eye can see with these gorgeous acacia trees dotted around and the biggest, bluest sky I had ever seen. And the sky at night with no light pollution nearly knocked me off my feet!
You could go and spend the days in an air conditioned hut and then do a night safari! Problem solved 😂

Pablo has definitely been a saint so far! Although he did steal DS’ toothbrush yesterday 😂

The topic of the ‘type’ of walk is an interesting one. I read all these posts just before our second walk of the day and I would say Pablo’s walks are similar to @brushingboots and @SpanielsGalore in that P covers far more ground than I do and has his nose to the ground a fair bit of the time. I love taking him to that nature reserve I took him to yesterday morning as it seems like Disneyland for him! Different types of terrain - so wooded areas, mossy areas, grassy ones and a shallow stream as well as the smells of all the wildlife - rabbit droppings, mole hills and squirrels running about. He doesn’t wander too far from me still, unless he has his head stuck in a particularly interesting smell and I have walked on a bit. If I stand still, he will sniff about around me. He is a very serious sniffer 😂 always looks like he is trying to solve a calculus problem to me when he’s going after a particular scent. His walks are also when he gets the zoomies - he will find a stick he finds particularly appealing and tear about the place with it in his mouth 😂 it’s also when he gets the most overstimulated I think.
Sorry for the essay!! I need to reply to the others but I’m going to do in another post so I can go back and read what I am replying to 😂

@CoubousAndTourmaIet thank you for your recommendations on nice lead walking! You are absolutely right that I need to do more of it to start getting it right. I do use the ‘wait’ command a lot
on walks - especially when crossing a road. I may have accidentally used the word ‘beautiful’ to mean ‘walk nicely’ because when he drops back in to place, I will praise and say ‘that’s beautiful!’ 😂
I must sound like a right nutter 😂
Also, sorry to hear your therapy sessions are coming to a close - I think you said before that you were looking to get back in to painting? Would love to see some of your stuff if you’d be willing to share? I used to do some pencil sketches and would love to get back in to it! I will try and dig one out to share if it’s not too self indulgent 😂

@SpanielsGalore I don’t blame your DS for not liking the petty discipline side! I think I would be the same. So many of you with experience of the military/MoD or family members that have! That bit about him taking his chances at not being the slowest made me laugh! I hope the elephants behave themselves! It’s also reassuring to know that none of yours became a nuisance in the house. I think I am on tenter hooks waiting for a complete personality change 😂

I do love hearing about all the Spaniels. One thing that stood out to me when I read that gun dog book a while ago was how much of the book was dedicated to the ‘job’ of a spaniel over the job of a lab. I feel like maybe a Spaniel’s job description in the field is much longer than a Lab’s? I seem to remember a paragraph the start of the Spaniel chapter that said something like “Lab owners, your Lab’s place is by your side unless they are retrieving” almost like “you can skip this chapter as it won’t be relevant to you” 😂
Forgive me if I am talking absolute rubbish - as you all know I am still very much a novice 😂

Latest dog hate thing is up and its a corker.
I saw a dog ages ago (in its own garden) but it looked scary, should I report it?
Apparently the answer is yes because it exists and could escape.
Hmmm.

Think we'd better brace ourselves for that knock on the door today 😏

@VanGoSunflowers I’ve just written a piece about keepers’ dogs and one of them put the difference between spaniels and labs to me really nicely –

“The labs are a lot easier, a lab does what you tell it. A cocker will hedge his bets and chance it and then go, ‘oh, alright.’ A lab you can say ‘sit there, stay there,’ and if it’s trained it will sit and it will stay. A cocker will bum-shuffle, run over there, run back, it won’t go far or do anything naughty but it’s always testing the boundaries…. once a lab is fully trained I can literally say ‘sit there, don’t move’, and it will not move. It will sit there while you shoot pheasants or whatever you’re doing, whereas a cocker – the next thing you know, it’s in your duck butt, poking its head around the side so it can see better than you can.”

He was being complimentary about his cockers who he adores and who he prefers to his labs. He prizes his labs as amazing picking up dogs because they’re bigger and stronger and where he lives/works that’s crucial because they do a lot of duck shooting and water work. But the cockers he just loves because they’re fun and happy and will still go anywhere and do everything with you, just with a cocked head.

A lot of the pro gundog people I know – trainers, keepers, people who trial, people who work their dogs five days a week picking up etc – have views about whether cockers or springers are per se ‘harder’ and I’m always amused by their varied conclusions. Someone I spoke to the other day for this piece reckons that her cocker is far easier than her springers, but a lot of the trialling people I know see their springers as dead easier by comparison, so it’s horses for courses and they’re all different. And then HPRs are something else entirely.

@brushingboots that quote is great. Sounds very familiar 😂

@brushingboots Awww. The cocker bum shuffle. 🥰 I find the cocker v springer argument really funny. Are they really that different? It's not that long ago that they were all the same breed. Having said that, I wouldn't have a springer. 😂 Half a one was enough to put me off. (Totally ignoring the fact that there's one snoozing next to me on the sofa.)

@VanGoSunflowers Cockers go well with labs. Just saying. 😂

@SpanielsGalore me too! It's hard to know if it's more about the individual dog but a lot of pro people seem to think there is a difference. But given that every other person I ask gives me a different answer to which is 'harder' I'm not sure I'll ever reach a conclusion.

@brushingboots You'll have to get a springer as part of your research. 😉

People always think P is a springer because of her colouring. And then they'll argue with me when I say she's a cocker. One used the "Well they all started off as the same breed and were divided by weight" argument. They finally gave up when I pointed out that still made her a cocker as she's only 12.5kg.

Talking of size. I attempted to measure my pair after the comments about K being tall, but small. I say attempted as you'd think I was trying to murder them with a tape measure and neither would stand still.

K is approximately 15 inches to the withers and weighs 8.5 kg.
P is 16 inches and weighs 12.5kg.

How does K compare to pupsy and Vinny @YorkshireFelix ?

I've had 3 different trainers compare my lab to spaniels

First gundog trainer told me my lab was more like a spaniel and it wasn't a compliment 😂

Second trainer used me and her to demonstrate to the spaniels how they should be hunting.

Third said both mine were the 'huntiest' labs she'd seen.

No idea whether it's my training or their lines.

We did gundog classes with someone who had one of my older pup's siblings. She'd always had spaniels previously and said she'd never get a lab again.

I wouldn't have a spaniel, but that's as much about appreciating how easy short coated dogs are than anything else. Also, my girls are small, so the size related advantages aren't quite so apparent.

It's interesting actually, as really I would say little pup is too small for a lab, but we often get comments about what a great size she is

I will measure him when I get home!! I have escaped to the office to get away from everyone 🤣

For hoopers, size categories are defined by ulnar length rather than overall height although I assume there's a fairly strong correlation. I think I read it's done that way as it's a much easier, less subjective measurement to take.

@tizwozliz That first trainers comment made me laugh. 😂

I think working cockers' coats are a completely different ball game to show cockers. Unless it's just my pair. My four year old has never needed trimming. She just gets her ears brushed a few times a week. Same with the 1 year old. She's just beginning to get some feathering. They do shed like billy-o, but I think labs do too, don't they?

That's interesting about hoopers measuring. I feel another attack of the tape measure coming on. 😂 Is that armpit to ground? I think K would beat P on that one, as she's all legs with a little body.

It's elbow to paw.

It's not so much the grooming itself with spaniels, as to how much mud, dead leaves, twigs etc. they pick up in their coat. Fluffy paws = muddy floors.

Just anecdotal as well, but having issues with grass seeds seems to be far more common in spaniels, I think a combo of being lower down and a slightly longer coat.

@tizwozliz Oh yes. They do do that. 😂 I hate sticky green ball season. And we're always stopping on a walk so I can pull twigs out of their tail feathers.

@CoubousAndTourmaIet oh no, not another one 🤦‍♀️ is it on the Dog House or in the ‘other place’?
I take great comfort knowing that many people who post that type of rubbish are not representative of the general population! On the odd occasion I haven’t been able to control P and he’s run over and bothered people, I nearly always brace myself for a telling off and it has literally never happened 😂 I could just have been lucky so far I guess. Or maybe people in real life are a little more forgiving… or maybe it’s my over the top apologies that stop them 😂

@brushingboots oh I loved reading that, it put a smile on my face! As you know, I have no experience with spaniels (and only a very short experience with a lab 😂) would you say that because of the type of work they are bred to do, that they almost need to have a little more autonomy or problem solving skills? Whereas a Lab’s main focus is more to do as they are asked? I love the difference in the way both breeds move as well. Pablo thunders about, I can hear his paws pounding on the ground but when I see a spaniel move, they seem so agile and nimble. Almost like they could do yoga 😂 it’s more of a dance than a run, maybe? I love the one paw raised and the head tilt!
Based on my sample size of one whole dog for all of 5 minutes, it does seem to me that Labs are more forgiving for a first time owner. And I have to say, I think he was made just for me. He’s exactly what I wanted out of a dog, even though he wasn’t my first breed choice. But now @SpanielsGalore is putting ideas in my head about getting a Spaniel at some point 😂 let’s see how I feel once I am out of the other side of adolescence!

@tizwozliz definitely agree on the low maintenance coat thing! He sheds a fair bit but I have hardly any light coloured surfaces in my house so I can pretend it’s not happening! I’ve not had to pick anything out of his coat yet and we do go through some interesting terrain sometimes! The breeder sent a video of her bitch’s first litter (born 2022) all lined up with as they all met up with each other. Such a beautiful row of handsome dogs 🥰 they all look on the larger side to me, but it’s hard to tell!

@tizwozliz I would take all of that as a compliment but then I am a spaniel girl! Your girls are lovely and I’d say smaller is better. I met a really nice five-month-old lab the other day and thought how I wished I could have one that size. He was 17kg which is the very top end of the size of dog I’d want.

@SpanielsGalore Will measure pupsy when she next gets out of bed!

@VanGoSunflowers I haven’t ever thought of it like that, but yes that does make sense! In theory a lab is a peg dog, sitting waiting, or working on marked retrieves in a straight-ish line – they will probably go further away but it’s for a task, whereas we often ask our spaniels to hunt more and closer to us, or they’re dogging in and taking pheasants back home etc. A lot of people with big dog teams train them all the same way though so in theory a good lab should do a spaniel’s job and vice versa, even if a spaniel finds it harder to sit on a peg being quiet and not bum-shuffling all day. I had a vision of pupsy being a peg dog and I’m not sure we’ll ever get there. She’s not very whiny but she does bum-shuffle and I think she’d just get frustrated.

Can confirm that she does thunder when she’s going really fast and hard though! Of course she’s probably half P’s weight – or she will be eventually, if not less than half. Obviously get a spaniel! They’re amazing. But you made such a good choice with P. I think they are more forgiving for a first-time owner – it was probably silly of me to have a spaniel as a first dog but she’s so good that it’s fine.