Our Cosmic Autumn Rebellion (Adolescent Support Group)

[MonCoubousMonTourmalet]

Okay folks, let's head into late summer/autumn.

@LandSharksAnonymous
I commented on that Tibetan Mastiff at the time.
My partner thought it was okay, because it was Romanian/Italian and in Europe, the judges do not go near the dogs mouth. The owner/handler will display the teeth. I don't know if the judges are told to allow more leeway with dogs from Europe, and I'm not totally sure what the FCI rules state about penalising aggression, but, since Crufts is run under UK rules, not FCI, where the groupings are different, the judging should adhere to this.

If I'm totally honest though, it is not unusual for LGD breeds to be "sharp" around strangers, it almost goes with the territory, and I do think some allowance is possibly made for this at FCI shows. I'm only basing this on what my partner has experienced - he has been to a lot of shows in Europe - he is more clued up on LGD breeds than I am and he has better instincts around them. He has been hands on with most of the breeds but is very wary of certain particular ones... I'm under no illusions - ours is the "softest" LGD breed though, arguably the most domesticated, given its history as The Royal Dog of France. Aggression is highly undesirable in PMD. But even Pyries can have their stroppy moments occasionally, and that's why you really have to understand their instincts and what their work entails. It's about mutual respect and trust - there's no point thinking you can push a LGD around. It's why the "giant breed" generalisations on MN incense me; it's irrelevant whether the handler is 8 stone or 16 stone, the dog is still way stronger. But I'm going wildly off topic, so...

I agree at Crufts, it does not give a good impression to place a reactive or nervous dog of any breed. Over the years, we have seen dogs of many breeds placed at UK shows, despite backing off or grumbling at the judge, certain breeds are known for it, you see them trembling with tails between their legs. As you know, often with showing it's about connections, not always just a measure of how good your dog actually is. Sometimes it's about reputations; if a dog is a known winner, it will be placed by some judges even if it performed badly on the day, perhaps that is also true of the TM at Crufts.

@Aubrielle - if a Goldie had done the same (the lip curling, and grumbling and attempted snap) they would have been removed from the show ring. I completely get what you're saying about being a bit 'sharp' and of course the aloofness is part of the breed trait. But there's a difference between showing aggression and displaying behaviour you'd expect, I think. I'd be interested to know what your partner thought of the Tibetan as I was really quite shocked - as I said, I feel there's a difference between showing a breed trait and then what was shown in the ring (and backstage) on the day.

To be fair, I am really not sure why I am always so surprised by Crufts being such a nightmare!

The Cocker Spaniel that won the Gundog group this year was such a beautiful example of her breed (in my very limited experience @brushingboots @SpanielsGalore and @YorkshireFelix will be able to say if I am wrong) but also such a good example of just how timid Cockers can be. But in my experience, I wouldn't say it's normal for them to be that timid.

Yet the commentators completely glossed over it and said she was just 'shy'. She was timid out of the ring though - in several shots she was cowering under her handlers seat...and, as lovely as she was, I don't think she was necessarily the best example of her breed. But, as you allude to above, her owner/handler is incredibly well known in the Cocker Spaniel world (according to what I have read since and his interview at the time).

Personally I’m not a fan of show cockers as I (generally, rather rudely and arbitrarily) consider non-working line spaniels a bit pointless. Am not into showing, neither horses or dogs. If I’m competing with either it’s for the sport.

The cocker winner looked a bit drugged to me – not suggesting she actually was but the only time that pupsy has ever been that chill was when she was literally doped up from a GA. Maybe that’s just what show cockers trained for a ring at such a high level are like and I’m sure she is lovely but I don’t see the appeal of a dog like that.

Vets for us at 1pm. Am not very hopeful as her leg doesn’t look any different to how it looked on Saturday when her confinement was extended, despite ABs being given twice a day. I’m going with precisely zero hopes up and working on the presumption that this poor dog will be stuck on a lead going round in circles for ten minutes forever. Was like walking a kite in a gale this morning .

Yes. I don't really know a lot about show cockers either. I used to go to shows, as I had friends who competed. But what I liked the look of wasn't usually the one the judge picked.
@brushingboots I hope the vet visit goes well. I can see the reason for on lead walks - keeping wound clean etc. But not for being restricted to 10 minutes. What's the reasoning behind that? P was allowed 10 minutes x twice a day after her knee surgery. Surely a grass seed removal doesn't need the same level of restriction.
Not meaning to minimise or trivialise Pupsy's op in any way. Just trying to understand the rationale behind the two levels of care.

Truly @SpanielsGalore I have no idea. I’ll not be happy with lead walks after today either to be honest if that’s the result – girl needs to run and get her nose down and enjoy life again even if it's just half an hour to start with – but ten minutes twice a day seems excessively cautious. She hasn’t had a proper walk for 12 days now and I can't even do any training with her either. There was some fluid beneath the wound on Saturday, hence the ABs but it genuinely looks the same to me now after four doses of meds and I have really done as I have been told. This morning we only went down our drive and through our little village of 20 odd houses and back. Mental.

I know dogs aren't people and they don't feel things in the same way as us and that they live in the moment but most of her moments are bloody dire right now. I've been feeling so sorry for her that I've allowed her to sleep upstairs with me since Saturday, just so she has something nice in her 24 hours.

I'm proud of how well she's taken her confinement but surely you get to a point where it's just mean.

We don't have a tv licence @LandSharksAnonymous , so all we've seen is the group judging and BIS judging on YouTube. I commented that the TM handler was holding it very tightly by the muzzle, partner said it was okay because that's pretty normal by FCI show standards where the judges don't handle the dog's mouth. If there was more to it than that, we didn't see it.

No, my partner would not condone aggression in any dog. Based on what he saw at shows in Finland, Denmark and France, which he visited as a photographer, he actually considers that the Dangerous Dogs Act should cover at least 3 LGD breeds and a couple of Mastiff types that are currently increasing in numbers in the UK. I'm not naming the breeds publicly here, but he had a LGD lunge for him after the owners said it was "friendly" and we have photos of others chained and heavily muzzled while waiting to go in the ring. So no, if there was more to the TM story than what is on YouTube that puts it in an entirely different light.

We have more concerns than anybody in regard to all the Romanian "recue" dogs flooding into the country as many are LGD crosses with highly aggressive temperaments. We know that this could impact other LGD breeds and potentially result in all dogs of this type being muzzled, including our own, so he would absolutely not okay aggression and if that's the impression I gave then I apologise to you and to him. .

@brushingboots At least with P I had a 12 week plan laid out from the beginning, so I knew what we were in for. And she was slightly drugged to keep her calm. It's way worse when you think you are going to be given the all clear and aren't.

@SpanielsGalore Yes exactly, and especially when it’s a single-stitch job. Not exactly very a complex wound. OK, the stitch did come out and that wasn’t ideal but she could have done it getting in or out of her bed as it looked like it was hanging out to me! I don’t know if the fluid beneath the cut is related to the stitch having come out early but the wound was healed over by the time it came out – it hasn’t bled at all. Ugh.

Sorry the grass seed issues are ongoing @brushingboots you must both be thoroughly fed up with it.

@brushingboots
Personally I’m not a fan of show cockers as I (generally, rather rudely and arbitrarily) consider non-working line spaniels a bit pointless
That made me chuckle! Poor Satan would be heartbroken if she knew 😄I had thought the same about the Cocker, she was incredibly docile - never seen anything like it in the Gundog group tbh. They're usually all a bit manic.

Will keep my fingers crossed for you and for Pupsy. It must be horribly hard on the both of you

@Aubrielle It wasn't very pleasant! The owner of the Stud I used for my latest litter was there, and they said that they were really pleased their dog didn't encounter it...as it was apparently lunging at dogs backstage (hence why everyone in the videos is keeping such a wide distance).

And no! You absolutely did not give me the sense you thought aggression was okay, not at all! I think we're very aligned on this. I was more interested in whether he thought the TB behaviour was more normal (even if I think it was aggressive). I suppose i phrase it badly, what I more meant was are they (TMs and LGDs more broadly) more predisposed to behaving that way than other breeds (in which case I can sort of see it - like how Malis always snap at things and Goldies always want something in their mouth) as you have more experience of these types of breeds than I do. You said they can be aloof, which I can totally see...but the way everyone acted as though the TBs behaviour was normal just seemed odd to me...and now I'm wondering if I was wrong!

Most of what I know about LGDs is from you 😃I am a complete novice, so really keen to learn more tbh

Freedom is ours!!!

Brilliant news @brushingboots!! How are you and pupsy celebrating!?

So pleased for you both. 🥳🥳🥳

We will be celebrating by hunting for a rabbit ball on some short-ish grass this evening so she doesn't go totally nuts with the freedom granted! As much as I'd love to take her for a gallop on the stubble, like the racehorse that is she she's going on a build-up programme for the rest of the week so she doesn't strain something in the excitement of getting to walk more than ten paces.

The nurse said, very solemnly: 'I'm very happy with that and can sign her off. Is that OK with you?'

'Is it OK?!' I said, 'that's the best thing anyone has ever said to me!'

And apologies to Satan, @LandSharksAnonymous!

God, no, it's not at all okay for a show dog @LandSharksAnonymous Genuinely had no idea about it grumbling at dogs etc. Not good... But slightly not surprising at the same time... (tries to be tactful)

We've met quite a number of TM over the years. They are mostly calm, quiet but very aloof, same as Kangals, similar vibe. Quite intimidating up close. You sort of say "lovely dog" and ask about it, but you don't try to cuddle it. They're not outright aggressive, just very imposing. Far more so than other breeds of equivalent size, including our own. Met one locally a few months ago when Brie was little, would be interesting to meet him now but I think she'd poop her pants tbh, given that she thinks she's a tiny Catbeagle.

Although I say LGD can be "sharp" and they can, it's not so much that they're openly aggressive, because they kind of don't need to be. They don't throw their weight about, it's more a "don't mess with me" sort of vibe. It's hard to describe. So no while we don't okay it being aggressive, we kind of get it. If that makes sense. Does it? As a show dog, not normal, as a working dog, normal-ish...

We (me and my parents) had an Anatolian. Beautiful dog but I wouldn't have another unless I had a lot of land. It's a much more primitive breed than PMD, they really need to be outside, working. It's just not an urban/suburban pet which a PMD can be, if you have the commitment. They're amazing, Anatolians, I love them but they need a mentally stronger owner than me. I'm a LGD lightweight truth be told.

Ahhh, am so pleased for you @brushingboots ❤

@brushingboots no need to apologise to Satan - she’s utterly pointless (see photo below for proof - what self respecting dog lets herself be dressed as a reindeer?)

Oh I am so pleased for you and puppy! I bet she’s going to be over the moon 😀

@Aubrielle completely understand what you mean about the ‘don’t mess with me’ vibe! I only know one person with a Kangal, and they live in Croatia…and have about a hundred acres, and a farm. I don’t think the dogs ever even been indoors. I’d hardly call you a lightweight 😃

@LandSharksAnonymous How can you call someone so sweet 'Satan'? She look like butter wouldn't melt. 💖
I sometimes think when I am old(er) I will downgrade to show cockers. And then I remember they are yappy little things and talk myself out of it.

I have just mortally offended someone by using the 🤷‍♀️ emoji. FFS I'll take my own advice and tick to this and the puppy thread in future. 🙄 (eye roll for maximum offence)

Awww, Satan looks so sweet and innocent.... 💗@LandSharksAnonymous

But then again, our Freija does that big liquid eyes thing too...so I'm not falling for it 😈

@SpanielsGalore @Aubrielle If you had watched her round up four grown Golden Retrievers and then back them into a corner, you would definitely not be describing her as 'sweet' 😁She is incredibly feisty. But she is admittedly very very pretty

I saw the 'offence' you apparently gave, @SpanielsGalore...not really sure what there was to take offence at! But people are quite sensitive! Let's just hope no one takes offence at your eye roll

@Aubrielle - glad you stayed! That broccoli and face is a glorious photo!

Thank you and @LandSharksAnonymous for sharing the season signs. I don’t think it is - but I suppose we will know if I spot any blood.

Her tummy issues haven’t resolved so I’ve taken her off both the meds (after calling the vets) and I’ll give it a few days and introduce one at a time to work out which one is causing the upset.

I’ve got an appointment with the behaviouralist. So just need to maintain until then!

Thank you re my photobombing pup @Flowerfusion She's a bit of a character.

Your poor little girl, it's rotten for her and frustrating for you not knowing what is to blame for the upset.

It's good that you have an appointment with a behaviourist and I hope that goes well.

We're finally making a bit of progress with the secondary fear thing. She almost jumped in the car without persuasion this afternoon, so it's no longer a flat refusal and backing away from the open tailgate. She also watched a tractor wuffling the hay in the field adjacent to the bridleway and she didn't spook.
Tiny steps but some small victories today.
So quiet up the moor, we walked further and didn't see a soul, just lots of sheep.

@Flowerfusion glad we helped! Let us know how it goes with the behaviourist?

@Aubrielle oh so pleased to hear about the progress, that's great news! Sounds like Brie is growing up 😍

Twatdog ripped both arms off Elephant this afternoon and then ran around with her armless body for about an hour (whilst flinging elephants stuffing around the garden). It always amuses me when he does this, as all the other dogs sit on the patio and watch him as though he's some interesting specimen they've never seen efore.

Thanks @LandSharksAnonymous She is getting a bit calmer again but I'm slightly apprehensive that it could be a gigantic step back when she has her second season (due late Sept, early Oct). The behaviourist said she'll get much worse after that and probably end up reactive...🤔We actually have no idea what that theory was based on; Brie ignored several dogs and two horses on the training session we had with her. But time will tell. For now, there seem to be small glimmers of hope that we can build her confidence slowly and gently.

Oh dear - poor Elephant being ripped to shreds 😢 Does that mean you have to buy him a new girlfriend sex toy?