Our Cosmic Autumn Rebellion (Adolescent Support Group)

[MonCoubousMonTourmalet]

Okay folks, let's head into late summer/autumn.

@Bupster I don't know if it's a thing now, but when I first got dogs people used to follow the NILIF (Nothing In Life Is Free) school of thought. The poor dogs had to work for every single measly piece of kibble or treat or access to a toy. How bloody depressing! Must take forever to eat a meal if they have to perform some action for each piece.

@Nella68 and @Aubrielle I tried to ban jumping up with P. At 3 months old, we had it cracked and she recalled to a sit. Unfortunately her size worked against me. People thought she was small and cute and actively encouraged her to jump up. It's not quite so adorable now she leaps head height at them. Or now her little sister joins in.

Aww happy birthday K @SpanielsGalore! She is such a little cutie.

I also have all of Vinny’s toys in a basket and he will occasionally dig in there for something specific. But he’s not hugely bothered by them. And I say ‘all’ his toys, it’s whatever is left over that he’s not destroyed 🙄

We had another attempt of going out as a family plus V yesterday and he was still a pain in the arse so I’m slightly dreading our holiday. Dh was walking him and he just kept spinning around constantly because I was behind with dd. He kept pulling towards any dog we passed (even though he usually doesn’t really care about other dogs!). We went to a cafe which is a specifically geared towards dogs, and he was a total nightmare in there but thankfully the staff weren’t bothered and we hit it just at the right time where everyone else left as they were closing soon. He just constantly wanted to jump up at the table and then pulling us in all directions, so dh had to hold tightly on to him and eat his cake with the other hand. At one point he jumped up and took a large bite from my lemon drizzle 🥲 He started whinging and barking because I had the audacity to stand up and walk 5 steps away to look at the cake counter, so dh had to swap with me and order instead. The whole thing was just mega stressful again.

We tried him in the back seat in preparation for our trip to Scotland and he was absolutely terrified. He panted and shook the whole time and was half stood on dd (then me on the way home) extremely stiff like a statue, which is what he does when he’s scared. I am going to buy this hammock car seat type thing I’ve seen to see if it helps him as it’s enclosed, but I do suspect he will just try and get out of it to stand on whoever is in the back with him.

We can deal with the car thing, I am sure it will be fine. We’re planning on taking plenty of breaks and it might end up that I’ll just have to go in the back with him instead of dd. I said yesterday that at least he doesn’t bark in the car at that would stress me out so much more!!

I have no idea how to deal with his over-arousal when we go out and about/anywhere new. I might message our trainer and see if she could help me with it because it means I always have to leave him at home or just avoid going anywhere different full stop. Maybe I was just naive with the visions I’ve had for years of having a dog and having loads of fun going to different places with it as the reality is so much different.

Sorry I did not mean for that post to be one big whinge!!

It's not a big whinge at all and I know how you feel @YorkshireFelix

To some extent, exposure will help Vinny, it's what we're doing with repeated car trips and pavement walks in traffic. So if you can get a car hammock and you try sitting beside him on short journeys, it's all good practice. It might help or he might just prefer being in the boot, in which case you may end up needing a roofbox for your own stuff. We used to make regular trips to stay with my parents in Cumbria with our two PMD girls, and that was the option we took.

There's also an element of it just being their nature though. Brie is nowhere near as "bomb proof" as our boys and she does get anxious about stuff. I had also envisaged taking her to lots of places and having fun, and it hasn't quite worked out like that for us either. I'd hesitate to take her into town or in Pets at Home, even though we did it with the others. Every dog is different and sometimes it means making compromises.

There's no way to know how he'll cope with your break in Scotland, he might surprise you and be absolutely fine, or there could be moments of him being a big pain. Hopefully once you're there and he gets to explore a bit he'll be too occupied with interesting new smells to play up. You are going to be apprehensive, I get that it's not easy. And maybe yes, if you have faith in your trainer, see if they can suggest any coping strategies.

I'm having 5 visitors on Saturday, including a vet and two student vets, so filled with apprehension myself, because I know Missy will be at her hooligan worst and make me look like an unfit owner 🙄But such is life with dogs.

@YorkshireFelix that sounds really stressful. Has he had much experience being in a cafe with just you? Do you think it was because the whole family was out that he got really excited?

I’m trying to think back to how we tackled cafes.
I started by going to really quiet cafes and finding a table at the back so M would be in a corner/ by a wall. I found if we were on a table in the middle it was just too exciting with all the people walking past. My first few visits were really short and I built up to busier places. I also don’t let people pet him and try to discourage them from interacting with him as this is like lighting touch paper. He completely pulled a table over when he was about 10 months old when the cafe lady came over to him with an enormous dog biscuit and making a silly noise. Now that was embarrassing!
I try and remember to take M’s settle blanket out when we go out to a cafe. It’s a bit of a reminder that he needs to lie down. When he was younger I would time a cafe visit to fit in with his meal time and then would drip feed him his kibble.

He’s getting much better at settling but walking him in new places is still a bit stressful as all notions of loose lead walking are forgotten.

Have you any quiet places that you can build up his exposure? Will he take food so you can mark and reward when he’s sitting/ lying or calmer?

@YorkshireFelix Sorry you had a bit of a crappy day out. I haven't done one since my aborted trip to Bourton on the Water. I really should work on it. I don't think K has ever been anywhere busy.

P won't walk on a lead for anyone else if I am there. She pogos up and down and keeps struggling to get to me, even if I am alongside her. So I end up being the one to hold the lead all the time. She'll happily walk with people if I am not there though. She'd also stress if I moved away from the table without her. Or in my case, moved up the ice cream queue whilst she waited in the shade with someone else.

Would giving V a chew or licky mat help him settle in a cafe whilst you eat? Or at least keep him occupied for a while. When I went out with DS for Sunday lunch, P happily lay under the table chewing a pizzle. She'd been mugging everyone who passed the table for a fuss before the food arrived.

P is also a poor traveller in the car. Sorry to say, I have a hammock on my back seat, but it doesn't help. She copes with short journeys, but anything over half an hour and she's constantly turning in circles and panting. The last long journey I did I ended up stopping at motorway services, unloading everything from the boot and putting the crate up so she could go in there. I think she was less stressed when we reached home. I think if I need to do a long journey again, I'll have to ask the vets for a mild sedative for her.

Sorry. I haven't been much any help. Just wanted to say you aren't alone. I understand how you feel though. When I only had P, I planned on touring the Scottish Islands with her. I had visions of staying in B&Bs and eating out in dog friendly pubs. Then she became car phobic and developed issues around me eating food, so that scuppered those plans.

Thank you @Aubrielle that is really helpful. Dh did mention a roof box so that could be an option. He’s not particularly happy in the boot either, he doesn’t relax at all and will sit up with his face squashed against the bars panting. When we went down to walk with @brushingboots the other week, he was sat up in the boot for 90 minutes, then had his long walk, was then running about like a mad man at my parents house then another 90 mins home. He was exhausted when we got back!

You are probably right about an element of it being their nature. I am sure someone would read my post and say why the hell did you get a working cocker then 😂 And I have realised quite recently since I’ve been on walks with Pupsy and a couple of friends with dogs, just how anxious he really is. I think I didn’t really realise as he’s my first ever dog so I don’t know any different. I think I had a pre-conceived idea of what anxious dogs act like, so I thought he was ‘ok’ and just not very confident as he was young. I do know it could be much worse though, we haven’t got it that bad in the grand scheme of dog behaviour. I just don’t know how to start fixing it. I am reluctant to watch YouTube videos etc as I’ll get sucked into all the conflicting information which I think makes you feel worse sometimes.

@YorkshireFelix Do you cover the boot crate, so he can't see out? That sometimes helps.

Thanks @Nella68, up until he turned into a teenage nightmare I genuinely used to take him everywhere! We have loads of nice dog friendly coffee shops in walking distance, so we would go to those and Pets at Home etc without a second thought. I think him moving from being a delightful angel pup to hitting adolescence all of a sudden was the turning point for us and I just stopped taking him anywhere because it stressed me out so much. Which now I realise was a mistake and I should have persevered. I do find it hard sometimes as 99% of the dog stuff comes down to me since DH is usually at work 7 days a week, but it’s not really an excuse. There is so much I would do differently if I could start over again.

He is the same even if it’s just me with him! At least on the rare occasion DH is there one of us can wrangle him and the other can drink their coffee while it’s still hot 😄

He is very very food motivated and will sit nicely if I’m giving him treats, but as soon as I stop he just forgets and gets over excited again. It’s the same with loose lead walking, he will walk nicely and then as soon as that treat is in his mouth he starts dragging me along again. I have tried all sorts of methods with that where you count in between steps and build it up etc, and I’ve been doing it ever since he’s been small with no improvement at all. As soon as the treats are gone he’s not interested any more. It’s the same as the vacuum cleaner thing I mentioned the other week - the premise of the whole method I was following from DTAS was that eventually he would associate the scary with positive treats and I could give him less and less, but I’ve never been able to reduce it as it just goes out of the window as soon as the treats aren’t involved. And again ive been doing that for months and months!

@SpanielsGalore I know we have said this before but P and Vinny are sooooo similar personality-wise it’s weird! He kept turning in circles too as if he was going to lie down, but then obviously didn’t. I spent a lot of time trying to untangle him. I think I’m going to talk to DH about a roof box as @Aubrielle suggested then he can at least still go in the boot. I could do with some sort of divider down the middle so then I can use one half of it, but I can’t seem to find a cheap-ish universal fit one, just super expensive car specific ones.

He would probably take a chew but only if it was a brand new one and not something he’s had before brought from home. We have tried that before and I bought a brand new yak chew but he wasn’t interested in it, so I think it would have to be something more valuable (and stinky!).

He doesn’t have a crate in the boot, I have one of those grill things behind the back seat head rests now. He did have a crate but got too big for it and I couldn’t find a bigger size which would fit our car (despite it being a Nissan Qashqai so not a small car by any means!).

@YorkshireFelix I think I know the boot divider you mean. I bought one. Entered my registration number, bought the one it said I needed and it didn't fit. After some arguing I got it refunded.
It's a shame you can't fit a crate in. I had the salesman measuring boot sizes last time I changed my car. I didn't care what it was, but it needed to fit a 36" crate in the boot.

It must be leg related. 😂 P was a dream dog - totally bomb proof and I could take her anywhere. She did a 10 hour car journey, stopping off at motorway service stations. Visiting busy tourist places. Then her knee issues came to light. And after twice weekly 70 minute journeys to the vets, she became almost catatonic in the car. It took months of work to build up to 20 minute journeys. For ages I could only do the three minute journey to the sea front. And she'd start stressing if I turned left out of our street instead of right.

@YorkshireFelix You weren’t naive – calm, chill dogs in coffee shops is what lots of us dream of and sometimes they don’t always play ball. Pupsy is 50/50 in a cafe, depending on her mood, despite being really good on the train and a dream in the car and as you know generally quite chill. Sometimes she is whiny at the pub and it just means we drink up and go home immediately, so you’re not alone. When she was younger we went out with her a lot more and I’ve done it less recently and now it shows a bit. But like with most things, if I chill out she does too. When I first took her on the train I was always really stressed and it made her stressed. Now, I don’t think anything of it and she lies down and sleeps. So I think we do pass on our stress to them a bit. I know that doesn’t apply to all dogs as some are just stressy.

It might be worth checking out Marwa’s reels on how she has dealt with public settling with Millie and Lady – I’m sure she’s made a load of content on this. Will try and find them and text you them.

But I agree with @Aubrielle and with @Nella68’s approach – I think you need to do more of it, not less. Make it not exciting to go to the pub or a coffee shop. Go for one minute and sit down and pretend to have a drink, then five minutes, then ten etc. Can you use the restaurant or outside it to work on it in an environment that he already knows a bit? Right now he’s super excited/aroused because it’s not something you do a lot but if you do it, he will chill out because he’ll learn that it’s OK. A settle mat is a good idea because it gives them somewhere specific to lie/sit down.

Is there no way of you putting luggage in the back for your trip so he can go in the boot? Or will it be too much for whoever is in the back? I know he doesn’t love the car generally but at least if he’s in the boot he’s safe and out of the way of people who might not want to be trodden on. They are £££ and so not a quick fix but I wonder if a solid boot kennel/crash crate might help him to chill. You can get them so that they don’t take up the whole boot and so that you can still use it for stuff. I would be very surprised I you couldn’t get one for your car and if you change it you can always sell them on/might fit in the next car.

I agree with @brushingboots , we do a boot crate up to about 4 months old, by which time they're approaching Lab size, so after that it's just the dog guard. We currently have an Octavia 4x4 estate so could easily fit 2 PMD in behind the rear seats. Boot and dog guard is so much safer and easier with wet or muddy dogs anyway.

With regard to loose lead walking, is there any way you would try it with no treats @YorkshireFelix ? Also, have you tried a double ended training lead? Logically, Brie should be pulling me all over the place, but she's not. And for us it's been no treat distractions, and the double ended lead combo that helped us crack it.

Yesterday, we had a biggie - a rattly horsebox on a narrow lane...😨But, she didn't even flinch! Also, umpteen motorbikes, again no issues. So progress here with gradual exposure. We still have a long way to go and I'm slightly dreading bonfire night. She'll never be like Algy, but that's okay. It's manageable.

No comment re coffee shops; I avoid them myself because of my social anxiety.

@SpanielsGalore Oh nooo that's so sad that the leg issue has then caused the car issue. Poor girl 😔We got this car just before we got V (it is leased so I think we might be due to replace it next year - I'll have to check!) and the boot of our old car was so much bigger, even though the actual car didn't seem bigger if that makes sense. I loved that car, I wish we could have kept it. Would definitely have fit any size crate in there!!

@brushingboots Thank you!! Yes you are all right, I do need to do more of it. I think I am just feeling the immense pressure of it all because it's pretty much my responsibility to fix it since DH isn't around to help. I do take him to the restaurant sometimes and he does settle quite well, after he's gotten over his initial crazy excitement of seeing DH and the girls who work for us, so I guess that proves he can do it eventually once he becomes more familiar. But I do not take him in there if it's busy because it's too small and he is mental for the first 5 minutes, and it's just embarrassing. And it's the first entering a place which I have the most issue with.

We do have a settle mat and I really did try for a LONG time with it at home but he is so obsessed with anything fabric, and he will just dig it then try and hump and it then run about with it in his mouth. I've kept it stored away so might have to get it back out and try again.

We did end up putting all the luggage in the back when we went up to MIL for Christmas but it was such a pain because there's less space and poor dd hated it. I'd love to invest in a proper boot crate but as you say they are £££. I think if I knew we were going to keep this car for a long time then I'd definitely try and get one. It is annoying that you can't get a universal type divider thing like you can get the universal grill to go behind the headrests.

@Aubrielle I didn't actually know those double ended leads existed, they look interesting. I never walk him on a harness because it makes him pull 10x worse but it could be worth a try. He is ok sometimes when we are walking our usual route, but it goes to shit if we go anywhere new. I was saying to DH yesterday I might get one of those leads that has a second handle further down so I can easily hold him really close if I need to. I struggle to do that usually as the lead just slips through my hands when he pulls away as I can't get a grip.

That is brilliant re the rattly horse box and motorbikes! The whole time we have had Vinny I know it's been very up and down - I felt like a couple of weeks ago we had turned a corner and things were seemingly going quite well and then I feel like we've gone backwards again. So maybe I just need to keep at it and remind myself that things will start going in the right direction again soon...

@SpanielsGalore I am looking again at the ones where you put your registration in. It would be £300 for the grill and the divider so I am tempted, but the odd review saying the same thing you have is a bit off-putting!! They are mostly positive though so I might risk it...

In better news, someone is thrilled that it’s log burner season.

My problem (according to them) was that 2019 was the cross over year for Ford Kugas, so there are two versions of the car. I entered my registration for clarification and the website told me to order the incorrect one. After several emails backwards and forwards, they did give me a full refund and paid for return postage.
Vinny looks very comfortable. 💖

I jinxed myself there @YorkshireFelix , she was a swine on the meadow today 🙄 But still okay on the pavement bit with little primary school kids all over the place.

I feel I have no control with a harness, but after the collar escape incident we were left with no choice. I use it more like reins on a small child in a way, and it's working really well because it gives me that grab handle feeling of security.

I know what you mean about the multi loop leads - someone on here recommended one to me ages ago, it might have been a Bully Billows ladder lead. It could be worth a try for you if you're struggling for grip.

Halti double ended control lead might be worth a look too. @YorkshireFelix - that is double ended but can be used as a regular lead then also has extra handles along the length too. It's what I used to use

@Aubrielle I am literally just about to click buy on that exact lead!! It looks brilliant and exactly what we need. How funny that you’ve suggested it. It’s good to have a real life recommendation!

@SpanielsGalore ahh that’s very annoying. I’ve sent it to dh and he said we should try it so I’m going to order one as it may solve all my problems!! We have 2 years left on the lease of this car so well worth the cost. I like the fact you can buy a tailgate too as I’ve not quite yet mastered the art of Vinny not jumping straight out of the car when I open the boot 😄

@YorkshireFelix I was going to buy a tail gate, but decided a seat belt attachment round the head rest was cheaper. Oh. Vinny doesn't wear a harness, does he? I wouldn't attach a seat belt to a collar.
I have a Mekuti balance harness and double ended lead if you want to try that. It's emerald green, so would look nice on a black dog. I bought it for my sprocker and he was around 18kg, so it should fit Vinny.
https://store.mekuti.co.uk/products/mekuti-balance-harness--lead-set

@YorkshireFelix I think I have the same set up as @Aubrielle- a double ended lead. One clip attached to the collar and the other to the front attachment point of his harness. The harness connection is mainly for back up as I hold the bit of the lead that’s attached to the collar. I find I can guide him away from things using the collar rather than the harness. If I use the long line attached to the back loop he thinks he’s a husky!
His pulling is much reduced with the collar harness set up.

I wanted a boot crate but my car (Hyundai i20 2013 model) never comes up on the searches. The later model does but I can’t be bothered with the ordering and fitting. We have a guard but usually he sits on the back seat.

I do exactly that @Nella68 . I lead by the collar end for more control, other end on the harness for back up. Much easier and yes - less pulling!
How amazing that we both found exactly the same solution for our big strong pups 😊

Little pup only ended up coughing/hacking for 24 hours and then was right as rain. We're avoiding busy places and meeting other dogs for a bit but seeing as we rarely encounter others on our usual walks it's not a huge deal.

Can't help on the cafe/pub settling advice - I've got one good and one bad!

@SpanielsGalore aw that is very kind thank you! We do have a harness as I bought a new one when we first decided to try him in the seats of the car before we ended up with him in the boot instead. I’ve never thought of doing the head rest attachment, that’s such a good idea!!

@tizwozliz ooh that looks like a good one too. I don’t know why I’ve not thought of getting one of these types of leads before as it will make my life so much easier. Also glad to hear your girl seems to have swiftly recovered!! 🩷

@Nella68 surely Midge sits like a human buckled in with a seat belt in the back seat 😂 You should train him to drive your car. I bet his legs are long enough!