Dog trainers views on Pet Corrector (compressed air)

[MrsForest]

This has been a game changer for me the last couple of weeks with a very bouncy 8 month old large breed pup.

no more eating horse poo and no more jumping and mouthing at me ( full set of nashers) now !

used with positive reinforcement

just seeking views from dog trainers on this method.

How do you use an aversive training tool with positive reinforcement? Scare the dog and then make it up to them with a treat.

Not a dog trainer but this is aversive. This is not the way to train a large breed.

Jumping up can easily be rectified by consistently turning away and ignoring the dog until it has four feet on the floor and then praising. Shit eating can be rectified by teaching a solid ‘leave it’ command. I’d prefer to do this than frighten the living shit out of my dog. Years ago, when I was doing a degree in training/behaviour, I was helping at a dog training class and, against my better judgement but, deferring to the qualified trainer, I squirted a dog in the face with water for something he’d done. That dog never came near me again.

If you can't train your dog without resorting to aversive methods, you shouldn't have a dog.

Edit: I'm not a trainer, but I am very 'doggy' and I would certainly not have any 'doggy' friends who did this and I would not sell a puppy to someone who did this, and I would not trust someone who did this near my dogs.

Thanks for the views. Fair comments.

How do you deal with a dog who knows she’s not allowed to jump at me - and never does - but who thinks anyone else is fair game?

I’ve spent hours training her not to jump up and she doesn’t to me, ever, but if I take her on a walk and someone says hello to her, she’s all over them (I mean, she isn’t, because I put her on the lead, but she would be if she had the choice!).

i have no idea how to deal with this?

You scare or startle the dog, and then reinforce the desired behaviour. The dog soon learns what not to do, and what is the route to the reward. Ideally, you first teach the dog, via positive reinforcement, what the desired behaviour is, and only use punishment when you ask for that behaviour and don't get it. Anything else is unfair to the dog.

I'm not always popular on this board as I do use aversion on my dogs: I have very high-drive, prey-driven HPRs and sometimes they do need to know, clearly, what they must NOT do, for their own safety, the safety of livestock and wildlife, and the safety of any motorists who might be around should they hurtle across a road after a hare. They require free running for their fulfilment and sanity and apart from one playing field a fifteen minute drive away, there is nowhere locally where I can guarantee no livestock, rabbits, hares, muntjac, roe, pheasants, partridges etc. I still use far, far more positive reinforcement than anything else, but I have drawn some very clear lines.

I have two happy, affectionate dogs who are very confident out and about in the countryside (other dogs, horses, bikes, farm machinery up to and including combines - none of it phases them) or walking on pavements near traffic. They are great with guests, lovely with children, fine with the vet - and safe off-lead.

Either:

1. Ask people not to speak to her or, if they do and she jumps, ask them to turn away and ignore so there’s no reward.
2. Train her a sit when meeting new people and ask them to give her a treat when she’s calm. No calm, no treat and they walk away.
3. Have some stooges to help train by coming in low with a treat on approaching the dog so it has no reason to jump.
4. Ignoring the wrong behaviours and rewarding the correct CONSISTENTLY is the quickest way. Google extinction burst, behaviours that have previously been rewarded get worse at first instead of better as the dog works harder to get its reward.

It was kind of a rhetorical question, because I know the dog will be frightened and then rewarded.
I don't use aversives at all. And I can't say I agree with your reasons for using them. (It's the argument used for e collars around here. It's always presented as getting shocked or staying on lead for life are the only two options.)
But I would hope you would agree aversive training tools are unnecessary for the problems the OP listed. Those issues can all be resolved with consistent, positive training and aging. It's an 8 month old puppy, FFS. Mouthing is what they do! Plus does it really matter if it eats horse poo?

@MrsForest what happens if you forget or displeace the pet corrector?

Teach your dog the leave command for the poop and a firm No for the jumping & other unwanted behaviour.

@apostrophewoman you make it sound so easy! This method should work if you have compliant people. One of the hardest parts is getting people to not wave their hands and coo at the dog whilst saying ‘I don’t mind’.

My 18 month old will politely greet people he knows (as they have ignored him as instructed until his feet are on the floor) and never jumps up at family. He will ignore people who ignore him, but it’s the random strangers who undo all the good work. As much as I can request (and yes I can get quite firm) them to ignore the dog he’s training; sometimes it is impossible to avoid people who disregard my wishes. I need to be able to bridge the gap between family and stooges; and then to real life situations with random people who think dogs are public property!

I'm with @SpanielsGalore There is no excuse for using aversive training.
I have a 50kg guarding breed, I treat my pups with the utmost gentleness.
Last week I had a session with a behaviourist who admitted to using aversive training methods in the very recent past so that was a no from me.

Puppies jump up, puppies mouth, puppies eat crap. It is what young dogs do. If you can't deal with it kindly and gently then don't have a dog.

You should prob get a 1:1 trainer instead

You have to stop letting her saying "hello" to people just keep walking you don't have to be rude about it just say she jumps up or we are practicing "ignoring" . Your dog doesn't have to speak to everyone. OR get her to sit before anyone approaches her if she jumps up just take her away.

You'll never do that @Nella68 because, unfortunately, there will always be people who say "oh I don't mind", want to encourage the dog to jump up, give it treats and a vigorous rub. It's yet another reason why I don't let my dogs off the lead in public. With a large breed there are people who see it as fun or a challenge to get the paws on shoulders moment - they're the ones that cause the issues. This is what makes us live in fear of the dog jumping up at an octogenarian or a small child. We had an "I don't mind" cuddler the other day and needless to say, our girl (16 months) lapped up the attention 🙄It's seemingly irrelevant that we do mind her jumping up. But I still wouldn't use aversive methods because it isn't the answer.

Fuck no!

Absolutely no need for aversive gadgets or techniques.

All you need is a good trainer, patience and consistency. I suppose that's too much effort for some people though 🙄

It is easily do-able. You just clearly tell people not to do it!
If I'm out training my dog I make it clear.

Get the stooge to act like that - the only way to prepare your dog for that situation is to practice!

you also may need to be firmer with people. Don’t be afraid to offend them if you have to in order to stop them getting to the dog. “Please don’t touch her, she’s in training”.

I think you might need to look up what positive reinforcement is because that ain’t it

Punishment doesn't have to scare or hurt a dog - it can just startle it enough for you to get its attention.

And aversive training tools are certainly not needed for those problems, no. But I tried +R for a long time on my older dog, and then she flushed a hare that shouldn't have been there, ripped the longline out of my hands and took off over the field before crossing a fast road. You can imagine what went through my head as I was running up the field after her - her being hit by a car, her causing an accident, her getting her longline tangled up in a hedge or a thicket and either hurting herself or not being found.

And @twistyizzy if your remark was aimed at me, you have no idea how much I've put into training my dogs. They get several training sessions every week even now, just to keep them engaged and happy.

@EdithStourton To me a startle is a scare - milder but enough to concern the dog.

I have had a dog run out of a field in front of a car after an in season bitch, so I know exactly what goes through your mind at those times. However, I didn't resort to ecollars. (Not saying you have, as I don't know what aversive tools you use.)

It depends what relationship you want with your dog. One where they trust you and WANT to do the right thing (for you) or one where they do the thing because they are scared not to. Dogs are living in a human world. Training can fail. Management never does.

I train terriers. Good luck with your relationship if you use aversives on them.

For me personally it is not a problem. I allow my pup to greet people she knows in an appropriate way. I was more pointing out that if you let your dog off the lead and it approaches random people, as some dogs do, you don't always have control over how they react to it.

Look for a "neutrality" class near you at ours we "coo" at each others dogs (amongst a lot of other things) and work on training them to ignore

@21ZIGGY I’ve looked for that sort of class; unfortunately they don’t seem to exist near me. We’re starting the Silver KC award next month and calm greetings are covered in that, so fingers crossed that’ll give us some tips to work with.