Dog trainers views on Pet Corrector (compressed air)

[MrsForest]

This has been a game changer for me the last couple of weeks with a very bouncy 8 month old large breed pup.

no more eating horse poo and no more jumping and mouthing at me ( full set of nashers) now !

used with positive reinforcement

just seeking views from dog trainers on this method.

@EdithStourton The sheep do get out, but it tends to be onto the roads. We have never met one, so i couldn't say what would happen if they did.
My dogs are always on lead when we walk past sheep in fields, because I know they can get through the stock fencing in places. However, they walk calmly past and aren't really interested in them. Which isn't to say that if they got into the field and the sheep began to run, they wouldn't give chase. Hence the leads.

That's much better explained thank you.

If you've ever had a dog who doesn’t give a crap about food or toys, it’s hard to appreciate how valuable a simple, clear interrupter can be. Teaching “leave it,” “off,” or “down” all relies on a dog being reward-motivated and mine isn’t, so those cues haven’t stuck the same way. "Uh-uh" has become an effective way to communicate boundaries in a way she understands, and actually responds to...so I rely on it a lot.

i walk my sister's spaniel and she is obsessed by anything that might be vaguely edible. And balls. With that dog you can train anything with the flick of a treat pouch. It's infuriating.

I’ve met escaped livestock twice in 25 years of walking dogs in rural areas. One sheep on a fenced in footpath when my dog was a pup. She wandered back to us when she saw it. The other time was last week when we met a cow on a footpath. Again she looked at the cow looked at me and came running back.

We have worked extensively on control and desensitisation around livestock because we’ve had to. Even if we hadn’t I’d not use pain, discomfort or fear on the small off chance we meet escaped livestock. I’m happy to take the tiny risk of a chase but if not a lead or walking with no risk (beach, woods) is another option. I know people who do that rather than train or punish.

Mine isn't food or toy orientated either - none of mine ever have been. I do use "no" as a sharp attention grabber because it's useful. They've all known leave it/off/down/sit/wait/slowly/here/quiet etc etc. Being a LGD breed, their recall is always hit and miss, so I mostly lead walk, but from a training perspective it's helpful they they have no real prey drive. I'm not really sure what motivates them, I don't use food much, other than odd bits of cheese. They've all been strongly bonded to me and very trusting. I've never used anything aversive.

I'm very much an amateur but I am dedicated to having well trained dogs and I love the process. I also live rurally so it's imperative I have dogs with excellent recall who are livestock proof etc

I wish you could sort my Podenco out he's a cocking nightmare around birds.

I have a rescue livestock guardian breed and the main reason I have not used aversion on him is frankly I’d be scared to. I think the likeliest outcome would be him getting aggressive back and maybe biting me.

I would much rather our relationship was based on him trusting me and associating me with good things than on him being afraid of me causing him pain and distress. There have been times when I ‘ve been cross with him and shouted at him (digging up the garden, barking in the middle of the night, stealing and ripping up tea towels) and his reaction to being shouted at is pretty much fight fire with fire ie stand your ground and bark loudly. There are online videos of dog trainers getting bitten after shocking dogs with e collars and I think that’s what mine might do.

When we first had him and were a bit desperate with his terrible adolescent behaviour we went to a trainer I’d found online with lots of rave reviews and good results but in the first session he wanted to use air and water sprays, bottles of stones, a horn and was recommending graduating to prong and e collars. He was very into needing to teach the dog to submit. There was no mention of the aversives online at all and he actually asked me NOT to mention it as ‘people can be a bit funny’. We never went back after that 1st session as it just felt so wrong.

No, I've never used aversion tactics either (well, apart from a stern "NO!!" , "Uh-uh!" which are technically aversive in the +R only world)

Same as you, re the odd bit of Brie/camembert. But I cannot (and should not) use that for training given the amount you need to use on training repetitions! The vet would bollok me - especially since she has heavy floppy yeast prone ears.

I do feel a bit lost at times with the training advice out there, because everyone's "help" relies on the dog being food or toy motivated. A lot of people just don't get what it's like to have a dog who once outside the house honestly doesn't give a shiny shit about anything you could possibly have in your pockets.

She will often do the behaviour asked, and if we are outside the house she turns her nose up at the reward I offer. And then I'd be there thinking, "ok but the science says I need to reward you in increasingly distracting environments for the repetitions to form your habits otherwise i am not training you and a really bad owner 😭"

but when you're standing there trying to reward a dog for having done the thing, where she has sniffed the treat (that she happily accepted indoors I might add) and then just stands there not taking it, I wonder what am I to do.

It's not that she is badly behaved, she just sashays along and mostly ignores people and dogs, but I do feel I'm relying on her good nature and not extensive training. And in the dog world, that can sometimes make you feel like the world's shittiest owner.

I've kind of accepted now that I cannot train her to perform obedience and I will have the rely on her character and interruptors.

@OnlyHerefortheBiscuits rewards don’t have to be food or toys - praise is a reward, a fuss is a reward, scratching behind their ears is a reward etc. I walk a dog who almost never takes treats on a walk but absolutely loves a good bum scratch, so that’s his reward.

@ThePure
I totally agree. You cannot use force with LGD breeds, it is dangerous to do so. I've spent much of my life with these dogs, current pup is my 9th, and at 16 months, she matches me weight for weight. It is pointless trying to force this type of dog because they are too strong and too stubborn, so the relationship has to be based on trust and mutual respect.

Your job has been far harder than mine because your dog is a rescue, whereas we've had all ours from 8 or 9 weeks when they are mouldable to some degree and it is easy to create a strong bond.

It's a weird one with LGD breeds because in one way they're tough as old boots but at the same time very sensitive to any harsh treatment, so you have to find that balance. It's made all the harder by them not being food motivated.

I pretty much could have written your post @OnlyHerefortheBiscuits It also made me laugh because my current dog is named Brie 😆

It's frustrating when every single dog trainer/dog owner/training video makes the assumption that all dogs are food or toy motivated. None of ours really have been to any great extent. Like yours, my current pup will eat treats at home, but out on a training walk, never. She also barks at home but never on a walk so clearly home is where she feels most comfortable - that is pretty normal for a guarding breed though.

None of our lot has ever been "obedient" in the conventional sense, we do train them differently, but they haven't been problem dogs either, aside from current pup and her lead biting habit 🙄I think we've been lucky that they've mostly done what we needed them to, aside from the iffy recall that has meant a lot of lead walking. We've never needed or wanted to use force/dominance or the aversive/coercive training methods mentioned on this thread.

In agreement with @tumblingdowntherabbithole that attention/affection is the answer for dogs that aren't food driven. I also talk to mine constantly, which drives the average dog trainer insane 😁 I find that talking helps to keep their focus on me, despite the experts considering it meaningless babble. With a non-foodie you do what works.

I’m happy to take the tiny risk of a chase
Well, I'm not. I've seen the results on a farmer's phone. I have a strong stomach, but I couldn't look at all the photos.

I sympathise with those who have dogs with zero interest in treats when out and about. That's one of mine. I worked incredibly hard on building her desire for a food reward, as well as using praise and attention.

Also, for me recall is key. My dogs need to be able to run (and hunt, but not chase) for their sanity, fitness and overall welfare. If you can't reliably recall your dog, please don't criticise me for how I have chosen to proof recall in mine.

The above may not work with an dogs but with a few minor tweaks will be more successful with most dogs.

1. Practice your dog sitting whilst people are around. No interaction with the dog /people at all. Start with a long distance between dog and people.
2. When able to sit relaxed around people you can then lessen the distance. Never ever get other people to reward your dog in this situation. You reward for calm sitting
3. Do not ignore the incorrect behaviour prevent it from happening, so if the dog goes to jump up increase the distance and then reward when dog is able to calmly sit.

I will never use e collars or spray cans. In my job I see the fallout of the use of aversives on a daily basis. The collie that ran into the road and was run over when they saw sheep having been e collar trained and was terrified of the shock they were going to receive.

The pointer that refused to walk into the garden as they had been shocked in the garden.

The dog that bit the owner when the owner got the spray out of her bag

the list can go on for ever..........

Oh FFS 🙄"working hard" is irrelevant if you have a non food-motivated dog @EdithStourton You can't teach or train a dog to want food or play, it either does or it doesn't.
I'm sure you think you have all the answers to every dog training conundrum, yet hardly anyone on this thread seems to agree with your "training" methods.

Also, for me recall is key. My dogs need to be able to run (and hunt, but not chase) for their sanity, fitness and overall welfare. If you can't reliably recall your dog, please don't criticise me for how I have chosen to proof recall in mine.

I cant prove it but I do have fab recall with dogs so tongue in cheek will question how you teach recall. @EdithStourton . We have often disagreed on the use of aversives but there really are alternative but it does take time and effort. My dogs are working breeds and do need good amount of free running daily and the get it but not because of aversives. Tbh I did have a gundog that had very high prey drive and from that dog on changed how we taught recall, put in some effort and now have had dogs with no issues and no use of aversives

Gun dog breeders could help hugely. They breed long distance ranging dogs (tbh) most pet owners do not need to have this in their pet dogs. If breed for working the breeders can do so much in the 8 weeks they have to puppies to classically condition the recall to a whistle. At every feed from the mum fro the second the puppies can hear. Classically conditioned recall is so much more effective than operant. One simple step to cut out the use of aversives.

The scenario the OP is talking about will be interesting to see what happens in a few weeks/ months Either the dog will not approach the handler, no point they get sprayed and will stay back (the recall and stand away game will be real) or the dog is so confident that the spray will stop working then what options does the owner have? Just increase the strength of the aversive

Lets watch this space.......

20 years ago we used it very successfully to interrupt our nippy dog when he got in the middle of a disruptive, focussed behaviour - not very often, and always very quickly. It work extremely well.
Nobody explained to us how unpleasant it was for the dog, or any of the other negatives.
We would never use it on our current dog, now that we’re aware of the impact.

Working HPRs/gundogs are trained to run and be handled over long distances without the need for aversive gadgets. My friend has pointers and can handle them half a mile away because they are trained. When working my dogs go up to 2 fields away from me and are still under control. No shock collars ever needed! That would ruin the relationship I have with my dogs.

I give up at this point because excuses are being made across the board. The simple answer is training, time and patience. If you don't have time to train a working breed then don't buy a working breed. They are usually high energy, high drive and highly intelligent, they need breed appropriate work + training.

This is true, just harder to spot I guess!

It's a shame they can't tell you "oooh yeah behind the right ear that's nice" or if they are just tolerating what you're doing.

She's mostly poodle, and was very aloof when I first got her (13 weeks) and honestly it was months before she would proactively seek affection from me. I made sure to not impose it on her, so maybe I've been accidentally conditioned to give her too much space! I had her DNA tested and expected it come back part cat 😂

I animate backwards on recall and I'll try adding a scratch of that cute little rump ❤️

Why did someone need to explain it to you though? I mean, you can't have thought it was kind. Saying "nobody explained it" isn't a get-out clause for inflicting pain.

Would you stick needles in your child to stop it crying because nobody had ever told you it was wrong...?

@OnlyHerefortheBiscuits I walk multiple poodles and none of them are remotely treat motivated 🤣 they all get a “good boy!” in a ridiculously high pitched voice followed by a fuss! I’m sure I must look quite the picture but it seems to work 🙈

I think there's a big difference between a prong collar and things that are designed to really hurt compared to things that give the dog the sensation that 'this is something not very nice'. Aversives can be very good at teaching us what to do and not to do - anyone touched a stinging nettle? Been blackberry picking? Been stung by a wasp? We're not forever traumatised by these experiences, we just learn from them - and those examples really can be very painful! So I don't think a mild aversive (that you've experienced yourself to know what it's like for the dog) that just says 'this isn't very nice' is the end of the world.

Of course if it's clear to the dog that you are the one giving the aversive then they're just going to learn to fear/avoid you. And of course there are a hundred and one ways it can be misused and abused. I've never used aversives myself but i don't think that they're the end of the world if they're used in the right way for something like eating other dogs or foxes poo for example - I wouldn't blame people for wanting to give them the message early on that 'it's not nice' rather then them potentially get parasites or whatever from eating it. I think as a dog I'd rather be taught that lesson quickly than wear a muzzle to prevent poo eating when out for example.

Talking of attention that dogs like I find a good massaging motion just in front of the top of the back legs always goes down well. Oh and knowing you have roast chicken can often get the worst recallers to start to come back.

I think@HotTiredDog is referring to the pet corrector air spray referred to in the OP.
Which although unpleasant and scary for the dog, doesn't inflict pain.

It's still an aversive training tool though, so thankfully they now know better.

Fair enough @SpanielsGalore I stand corrected.

But I still wouldn't consider that we should need to be told that this type of training is not a positive thing.

"Been stung by a wasp? We're not forever traumatised by these experiences, we just learn from them"

I disagree with your point, I know so many people who are scared of wasps and will leave rooms when wasps are present or avoid picnics etc. Plus dogs thought processes are simpler than humans, we can rationalise more. One bad experience for a dog (eg another dog having a go, the vet causing pain) can make the dog avoidant/scared for the rest of their life.

@Jan168 So you would deliberately let children get stung by nettles and wasps, so they can learn it hurts and not do it again. Or would you warn them of the dangers? I.E. train them not to touch things that will hurt.

My puppy started eating other dogs' poo at 4 months old. Are you seriously suggesting I should have put an ecollar on her rather than work on training a 'leave it'?

And what is wrong with a dog having to wear a muzzle? I had a dog with lots of health issues and he needed to be muzzled on walks to prevent him eating things. It didn't lessen his enjoyment of the walk at all. No amount of training or shocking would have stopped him from eating whatever he could get his teeth into.

It’s been hard to find a reward that mine will work for. He was more food motivated after he was neutered but still not hugely. No way would he work for kibble or a biscuit. He won’t take these at all when out. We carry a little pouch of high value treats usually fresh chicken, cheese or sausage and he will probably recall for those but it’ll always be hit and miss.

The other thing he’ll work for is his fluffy tuggy toy which only comes out as a reward. The lovely positive dog trainer we worked with tried hard to find out what he is motivated by and inconveniently one the things he is extremely motivated by is the prospect of ripping up fluffy things. He gets so excited and waggy if he is allowed a new soft toy to rip up. This is not a very practical reward in a lot of situations. I am quite envious of people whose dog likes normal stuff like chasing a ball and is motivated by that.

I am resigned that he will never have the mythical 100% recall and manage him with a long line which we’ve both got very good at handling. He knows the command and he can recall beautifully if he so chooses but he might decide not to.