Dog trainers views on Pet Corrector (compressed air)

[MrsForest]

This has been a game changer for me the last couple of weeks with a very bouncy 8 month old large breed pup.

no more eating horse poo and no more jumping and mouthing at me ( full set of nashers) now !

used with positive reinforcement

just seeking views from dog trainers on this method.

Can you find a gundog trainer? Gundogs are trained to work alongside other dogs without playing etc so the foundations are all about ignoring other dogs.

All the behaviours you describe are very easy to solve with positive training methods. I’m not sure why you feel the need to scare your dog into behaving

Anyone who thinks pet correctors are an acceptable form of training should have their animals removed from them.
its cruel
Train by fear and there will always be something the animal fears more than you. Train with trust and they will follow you forever.

@twistyizzy yes, I have looked into classes, but can’t find a close enough one for pet dogs. He’s pretty good at ignoring other dogs (unless they come up to him and entice him to play), It’s the random strangers that I can’t control and who ignore my requests and undo all the good work!

@SpanielsGalore I resorted to e-collars. I didn't jump in blind, I went to an established trainer and had a couple of sessions with him. Even without their collars now, they can be called away from eg deer.

@Newpeep my two dogs are not scared. The only time they look a bit reluctant is when they're called away from, say, a rabbit that they're pointing, which they know they're not allowed to chase. But they come, and are rewarded.

You also say that 'Training can fail. Management never does.' I gave an example just upthread of management failing very dangerously - a dog on a longline ripping it from my hands. A PP is desperately trying to manage the environment, and other people don't get with the programme. If you have never had management fail, you've been either very thorough or very lucky. Have you honestly never had a dog wriggle under a livestock fence you thought was secure or jump a wall you thought it couldn't, or eat something it shouldn't, or jump out of the car before you told it could because it smelt a cat, or get the lead or longline out of your hands so it could chase, or any of those things?

I train gundogs as a hobby and no I've never had any of things you've listed.
The issue is people not understanding the breed they have and not putting the foundations of training in from Day 1.
Recall training starts Day 1 as does relationship building.

Why do they 'come'? Do they want to or are they afraid not to? Looking reluctant? Well I'd say that's pretty indicative of them rather chase than come back to you.

Punishment is easy. Building relationships takes much longer.

I have owned relatively high drive terrier hounds in a rural environment and with the exception of sheep where we use a lead to move through they have been off the lead with regular check ins and no issues all their lives.

People who use punishment fool themselves that the dog is ok with it. Would you be? Nice jolt to the neck? It hurts as in my day job I work with similar voltages the collars use. Once shocked I am very cautious next time. I can see why it works on dogs for all the wrong reasons!

PS. I used to train with punishment 25 years ago. Then I acquired a dog for whom it didn't work. So I went out, did some learning and found a much better way. The best trainers I know now are ex punishment trainers.

You've been bloody lucky or bloody careful then - because I've had stuff eaten and had the lead ripped out of my hands, and so have many, many other people I know.

I'm on HPRs 2 and 3 now, and I work one of them. I understand them very well - I watch them on the wind, I know when they've found fresh scent. I train from Day 1. I play with them, let them sleep on me, make walks fun - all of that.

But you seem to be assuming that I don't.

They look reluctant as they come off the point - and then run to me happily. They are generally very keen and willing - their recall is fast and joyful, one of them actually bounds like a puppy - but I no longer expect most people on the Doghouse to believe me.

I'm pretty sure you one said that one of your dogs had once chased sheep. Maybe it was someone else. I was also under the impression that you use longlines quite a lot, but again perhaps I'm confusing you with someone else.

The collars I use range in stim from imperceptible to me to sharp and painful (though the pain fades very quickly, and I have never needed to turn them all the way up).

And let's face it, every organism is equipped to cope with predictable and avoidable aversion. If I burn myself on the iron, I'm a bit more careful for months (until I slip up again), but I'm not scared of using the iron, because I know exactly how to avoid being hurt. One of my dogs absolutely hates even a slightly raised or cross voice (even if not directed at her) but is much less bothered by a low stim on an e-collar, perhaps because it's very clear what she should and should not be doing. Again, I don't expect anyone to believe me - I've been over this ground on here before.

Well it's not luck as I've trained numerous. My trainer is my secret weapon. Even though I don't NEED to go to him I still do in order to keep on top of my skills.
Stopping a dog from eating things starts on Day 1 same as with everything else

I've made mistakes and am constantly learning but fundamentals are set on Day 1 and reinforced every single day. Even more important with working dogs.

All of my dogs: ignore other dogs and people unless they are told they can greet them, are 100% livestock proof so I can walk my working dogs to heel off lead through birds, hens, sheep etc, they never go more than 3m from me unless I tell them they can etc. All that's through zero negative training techniques.

I use a long line when I feel I need to - these days fairly infrequently - when we coastal walk on the cliffs and also on open moorland due to ground nesting birds or sheep but generally day to day not at all. In fact I had to go hunting for it today as I wanted to use it with a dog in my training class and haven't used it since Easter on my own dog! We walk rurally daily and encounter prey.

Call it what you will - a 'stim', 'buzz' ' tap' - whatever. It hurts. It wouldn't be effective if it didn't. It's designed to hurt.

Having seen the most unruly, aggressive, difficult dogs turned around purely with reinforcement training and management whilst in training you'll not persuade me that hurting a dog is in its best interest for whatever reason. It may be in yours but it is not in theirs. Ever. There are better ways. Often they take longer, take more commitment and more dedication but they exisit.

Agree

A good example of management is a little dog I teach - she is heavily reinforced by other dogs. Any attention is good attention. So we have put a very light line on her in class when she is working off the short lead. Not enough to cause issues but enough to block her from the other dogs. Three weeks in she is working beautifully for her handler and the line is being phased out. We have upped the value of 'mum' and lowered the value of the other dogs in the class. We will have to be flexible with the use of the line as training and success is never linear but I could have punished her when she approached other dogs and run the very high risk (seen it which resulted in a serious incident) of that dog associating other dogs or me, or her handler with Bad Things.

I think different training methods will suit different dogs but everyone gets a bit religious about it.

My dog couldn't give a damn about food or toys. She is clever but absolutely no motivation at all.

She seems to stay out of trouble with a "no!" or an "nuh-uh!" followed by a swift "gooood girrrrl" when she stops doing the thing.

She seems happy enough to know what I do and don't want and get a good girl for it.

But I've had positive-only trainers tell me that I shouldn't even tell my dog "no" 😵‍💫

The reason many trainers don't use the word "no" is because it has no (ha!) meaning. Dogs don't speak English, so you saying "no!" when they bark, or jump, or whine doesn't actually mean anything - it's just an interrupter. Which can work, but the preferred method is to teach an alternative behaviour and ask them to o that instead.

No just doesn't mean anything. I use an interruptor - I use my dog's name. As a pup I paired it with a treat. Now it means 'oy! pay attention and you'll get something really good' and then I can direct and reinforce what I want.

If you end up saying 'no' with no actual idea of what you want the dog to do it's meaningless. By all means teach an interruptor but if you pair it with something good it's always in the dog's interest to pay attention 😉

But it's not meaningless.... my dog understands it to be "stop what you were about to do" .

I know she understands it to be that because she...
ummmm...
...stops what she was about to do. (And doesn't return to do it!)

She then gets praise for that - which I think is the critical part that a lot of people miss out.

Same here.
'No' means, stop that and do whichever of the other zillion you could do which you know are okay.

The dog gets to choose what that thing is.

ETA, of course I'm happy to manage things as part of training. It would be daft not to. You also want to be sure that the dog knows what it is that you want.

Call it what you will - a 'stim', 'buzz' ' tap' - whatever. It hurts. It wouldn't be effective if it didn't. It's designed to hurt.
If it is solely designed to hurt, why are the low levels painless? E-collars can be used incredibly subtly. If you don't know that a stim can be painless, you shouldn't really be opining on e-collars.

There are better ways. Often they take longer, take more commitment and more dedication but they exisit.
Honestly, I am not sure that they do. There is £50k on the table for any +R trainer who can take a dog who has killed stock and make it safe. Simone Mueller, of Predation Substitute Training, has said it probably can't be done.

There's also the issue, when training takes a long time, of the restriction placed on the dog and the rest of the household during that time. It's a matter of balancing the loss of welfare caused by the restriction (for the rest of the household, not just the dog) and the loss of welfare caused by punishment. I think about that quite hard, because I don't want to be unfair to my dogs.

And management DOES sometimes fail, which is why getting the dog to understand what you want quickly can be important.

And @twistyizzy you are obviously a highly skilled and very organised dog trainer (and I'm not being snarky). I can walk my dogs, both together, off-lead, within feet of sheep, off-lead (which I only do with the owner's permission), but I'll be honest: it took me moderate aversion to get them there.

@EdithStourton But why did you need to do that? I can walk my dogs, both together, within feet of sheep. The difference being I keep them on lead instead of shocking them.

Same. See sheep in field. Pop dog on lead. Walk though field. Dog off again. Really not hard. The only place where it’s more challenging is on open moorland but the very light long line is used then and it’s no problem for the once or twice a year we walk in those areas.

I'm really not very "highly skilled and very organised dog trainer" and my trainer would certainly say I'm not 🤣

I'm very much an amateur but I am dedicated to having well trained dogs and I love the process. I also live rurally so it's imperative I have dogs with excellent recall who are livestock proof etc.

I have to disagree that management DOES fail. It can fail during training but that's why I have the foundations in place first. It is a non-negotiable for me that all my dogs have really solid foundations in the basics. If something goes wrong in training then I can always know they won't bugger off etc. Then I don't have to "manage" them.

Anyone can do what I do, there's no particular skill level attached to it, just patience and each minute of the day is a training opportunity.

Do the sheep near you never get out?

DH was running with our dogs a while ago. He rounded a bend in the track, with the dogs ahead of him, to find our two passing an escaped sheep and basically ignoring it.

And fences fail. Mine got into a paddock recently that they'd never been able to get into before. There was a sheep in it. The sheep was more interested in them than they were in it.

THAT is why I want my dogs trustworthy round sheep. They're on-lead in fields of sheep out of respect for the farmer, and because I'm not prepared to take any chances at all with someone else's very vulnerable stock without their permission.

(Plus I have seen the photos on a farmer's phone of the aftermath of a dog attack on sheep. I couldn't look at them all.)

And @twistyizzy I think dogs are dogs, and both training and management can fail, and sometimes do.

I think you're kind of missing the point I was trying to make.

Many trainers are against the word "no" because, on its' own, it's not a command. If you want a dog to stop jumping, for example, you train "sit". If you don't want them to touch something, you train "leave". You can't train a "no".

What you've done is use "no" as an interrupter, which is fine, but it's not really training, as such. I mean, if she was jumping, barking and spinning but you only wanted her to spin, saying "no" would be a bit pointless, really.