Other dog pinned my dog to the floor at puppy class

[tellmewhenthespaceshiplandscoz]

Evening all - looking for some advice and a little hand hold …

So dog is 5 months old and this evening was his 4th puppy class. He’s loved it so far (if a little more hyper than I’d like after!) and on the whole had some lovely interactions with the other pooches.

Last week the leader began the class with allowing the little ones 5 minutes off lead to interact. Our boy is a Border Terrier and still a little small even for a pup. He’s not off lead at all yet so I was a littte nervous but other than being excited he seemed to enjoy and it’s a safe environment isn’t it? 😳

A French bulldog the same age as him - similar size but pure muscle - who on lead he’s been ok with made a bee line for ours and proceeded to pin him to the floor. As soon as ours got up again other dog went at it again. No biting or anything. It was then distracted by another dog and left us. My boy seemed unfazed and still himself after. All ok with all dogs on walks since.

So tonight it happens again. His owners didn’t think it was an issue and didn’t try and distract. As soon as ours got away he went for him again. Reflecting back I feel like an utterly shit owner for not doing so before but my boy was panting but silent so I picked him up and went back to our seats. Class leader said “he didn’t seem too worried”. I’m not sure though.

My guts saying this isn’t appropriate behaviour if it keeps happening and should have been nipped in the bud. My dog seemed way over exited for the rest of the session with zero concentration. Seemed a bit unsettled when we got home but snoozing on my lap now.

Right now my plan is that we choose seats well away from this dog next week and if he goes for him I’m picking my boy up immediately and we’re sitting down.

If a dog did this to him on a walk I’d address it immediately and I’m so cross hay twice now I’ve not.

Do I need to chill a bit? Is this normal socialising?

L

It is not appropriate behaviour and I would not go back to the class. Class leader saying he doesnt seem bothered would be a mega red flag and I would never interact with them again.

I do hope you can find a more educated trainer in your area to help you.

This is a demonstration of social hierarchy. It's very normal and provided there is no aggression, it's just a display of one dog declaring themselves the boss in a playful way.

There would well in the future be situations where your dog does the same to another when a different hierarchy is in place.

This seems totally normal to me

Isn't that just how dogs play?

Totally disagree with this.

Dogs do not decare themselves the boss especially puppies.

If it’s just play though is it not concerning he only does it with my dog?

I’ve read that panting can be a sign distress? What happens if my dog decides “fuck this” and goes for him?!!

What was your dog's body language like?

No it's not normal behaviour and I would be totally pissed off. There is a world of difference between rough and tumble puppy play and one puppy repeatedly bullying another.
Are all of the puppies off lead together or a few at a time? It doesn't sound very well organised and I wouldn't be impressed with the trainer's response.
I'd try to get your dog to meet some nice, calm adult dogs for socialising instead.

Nope. Not a chance would I allow this.

Most puppy classes now tend to work on teaching puppies to be alongside eachother rather than allowing this type of behaviour. You want a dog neutral dog, that’s the aim.

I’m surprised your trainer isn’t stepping in, are they ABTC qualified?

I was the embarrassed owner with a boisterous puppy who only wanted to wrestle. It wasn’t aggressive, but he did need guidance and redirecting to more solid playmates with a similar play style 🤦‍♀️

I suppose it depends if you fully trust the trainer to know when to intervene, and it doesn’t sound like you do. Puppies do have different styles of play but they should generally be grouped appropriately.

Dog trainer here. No way in hell would I run a class along those lines. Puppies learning to bully or be bullied are being set up for a lifetime of problems with other dogs. As another poster said, the goal is neutrality
I would advise finding another class with another trainer. Put bluntly, this one doesn’t appear to have a blo0dy clue what they’re doing

I would not go back. As has been said, seems the 'trainer' is not a trainer at all

I’ve been watching a really good guy on YouTube about dog behaviour. His dog pack had a few puppies too. Google it. It’s fascinating when they go to the dog park he points out all the dog behaviors.

It may actually be your dog setting this other dog off because his energy is too excitable. I’ve learned there are a multitude of dog behaviors which result in other dogs asserting dominance.

m.youtube.com/watch?v=Hq21a0NAsfc

What has the trainer said about this?

Why have there been two posts in as many days about people attending bloody shit training classes.

Any trainer who has multiple young dogs off the lead in an enclosed space, or has ‘enforced socialisation’ in group classes when dogs are overstimulated is a danger. Don’t go back. Find a responsible trainer.

Personally, I’ve never seen a puppy or dog that wasn’t a littermate or very friendly (like my DMs dog and mine) pin another dog down and it not be borderline aggressive.

Wow so many replies, thanks everyone.

To answer a few questions …

Our boys body language at the time? To be honest it was difficult to see as he had this much wider and muscular dog on top of him. The second time it happened last night I heard some snarling and it was hard to tell from who. But once d removed him and we were seated he was panting a lot. He then littered about off lead for the rest of that exercise in another quiet corner with me right next to him but stayed under chairs having a sniff about.

The trainer I didn’t hear a peak out of and she didn’t make her presence known at all until once we’d left the situation when she just wandered over. Embarrassed to say I don’t know what her professional certifications are.

In terms of his energy triggering the other dog he is no more or less excitable, happy and energetic than every other puppy there. He is however one of the smallest.

So after reflecting over night/having disturbed dreams about it 😁 I’ve decided we will go back (can’t make next week but maybe a break is a good thing so other dog can pick on someone else) but for the off lead exercise I’ve decided - for the little if any value he gets from it and the total lack of management by the trainer, I’m going to politely decline and maybe keep him on lead. I don’t trust her to be watching and intervening when needed. He definitely seemed different after and while I can’t put my finger on how exactly it didn’t feel positive.

He really enjoys playing with the other dogs and we are getting some value from the learning of commands part so I don’t want to stop. Plus we’ve only about another three sessions to go. Should the other dog decide to “play assertively “ again to this degree I shall physically remove our pooch. I think a bit of me hasn’t wanted to offend the other owners who seem nice but just leave him to it. So I won’t be rude but if questioned and lll just say my boy isn’t enjoying it. I don’t think denying him those few minutes of off lead chaos will drastically impact on our training in this area.

He needs to know I’ve got his back.

Anyway looking forward to our walk in a short while and getting into that lovely sun with him. He’ll see his other dog friends along the way and hopefully remember how nice most dogs can be.

It’s not assertive play though, it’s aggression.

I don’t know why you’d knowingly take your puppy back to a trainer when you’ve admitted she isn’t paying attention, you don’t know her qualifications and she engages the puppies downright dangerous activities.

The mind boggles sometimes. Absolutely boggles.

Also ‘physically removing’ a dog when there’s undesirable activity, is very foolish. At worst someone could get hurt and at best you’re teaching him to be nervous.

Fair points. A bit more to think about before deciding we’ll definitely go back, thanks x

This.

Is the off lead part at the end of every class? You could just leave before it starts - avoids any issues and also means you’re not taking your dog directly away from an uncomfortable situation and potentially reinforcing a fear of off lead play/nervousness. I sometimes left before the end if mine was overtired.

There will be other classes with a different set up though that may be worth investigating, we tried lots that didn’t do anything off lead (or one at a time for recall). Also worth noting that when I went to classes that did have five mins playtime, it was only for very young puppies, I’m sure it stopped for mine around 16 weeks.

Our vets have stopped their puppy classes. Newer research has shown that anxious puppies get more anxious and dominate dogs get more dominate. Socialisation should be on a lead outside. The best socialisation is to learn to ignore other dogs whilst on the lead - and ideally off the lead unless given the instruction to play.

@tellmewhenthespaceshiplandscoz I am in the balance here as there could be an element of play, however there are normally polite introductions between dogs before this starts (the play bow) where both dogs agree that what follows is play. That said, the dogs concerned are both young and learning.

That doesn't mean that they should not be supervised and exuberant play discouraged.

One thing I would say though is that you shouldn't pick up your pup in the situation you describe as you don't want him to become fearful of other dogs. It would be better to block the other dog from approaching yours if at all possible.

OP keeping him in there but on lead during that part of the lesson is the WORST thing you can do! He will feel trapped and even more scared as he has no means of escape
If you were actually wanting him to become fear reactive, keeping him there and on lead is the best and fastest way to achieve it
Given that it is the opposite of what you want to achieve, PLEASE don’t do it. Your job is to advocate for your puppy, not deliberately put him in scary and overwhelming situations

Dogs need to learn how to be dogs. Instinctive ways of how to interact with other dogs and yes some dogs assert their dominance and demand respect, your dog needs to learn how to give that respect without getting hurt.

You are going to have a very reactive, unhappy dog if you keep intervening at this stage.

Was your dog physically injured? Blood drawn? You are being reactive so your dog will be reactive. It is not going to end well.