Other dog pinned my dog to the floor at puppy class

[tellmewhenthespaceshiplandscoz]

Evening all - looking for some advice and a little hand hold …

So dog is 5 months old and this evening was his 4th puppy class. He’s loved it so far (if a little more hyper than I’d like after!) and on the whole had some lovely interactions with the other pooches.

Last week the leader began the class with allowing the little ones 5 minutes off lead to interact. Our boy is a Border Terrier and still a little small even for a pup. He’s not off lead at all yet so I was a littte nervous but other than being excited he seemed to enjoy and it’s a safe environment isn’t it? 😳

A French bulldog the same age as him - similar size but pure muscle - who on lead he’s been ok with made a bee line for ours and proceeded to pin him to the floor. As soon as ours got up again other dog went at it again. No biting or anything. It was then distracted by another dog and left us. My boy seemed unfazed and still himself after. All ok with all dogs on walks since.

So tonight it happens again. His owners didn’t think it was an issue and didn’t try and distract. As soon as ours got away he went for him again. Reflecting back I feel like an utterly shit owner for not doing so before but my boy was panting but silent so I picked him up and went back to our seats. Class leader said “he didn’t seem too worried”. I’m not sure though.

My guts saying this isn’t appropriate behaviour if it keeps happening and should have been nipped in the bud. My dog seemed way over exited for the rest of the session with zero concentration. Seemed a bit unsettled when we got home but snoozing on my lap now.

Right now my plan is that we choose seats well away from this dog next week and if he goes for him I’m picking my boy up immediately and we’re sitting down.

If a dog did this to him on a walk I’d address it immediately and I’m so cross hay twice now I’ve not.

Do I need to chill a bit? Is this normal socialising?

L

Thanks everyone - some very helpful advice here especially regarding how my actions could make him feel more fearful.

Genuinely finding this helpful, thanks

Points definitely taken about passing my fear on.

No he wasn’t physically hurt

I get he need to learn play and behaviour but also the other dog and their owner needs to learn boundaries

This is really good to know and I’m taking this onboard

off lead session is right at the start so I think if we do go back we’ll perhaps consider enter the room once this is done. I’ll let leader know why before

Thanks, this is useful

Dogs need to learn how to be dogs. Instinctive ways of how to interact with other dogs and yes some dogs assert their dominance and demand respect, your dog needs to learn how to give that respect without getting hurt.

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I do agree to an extent but I’m not sure my dog should automatically have to show respect to a dog that pins him down in a puppy class 😳

I know you are a dog trainer but saying you should not pick up small dogs is not great advice. It is old advice but not good advice.

Reassurance does not create fear. Reassurance creates confident animals or humans! If a perceived threat is approaching leaving a small dog to deal with it themseves will create a much bigger rush of hormones that will create anxiety and fear in the dog. It will have a llonger lasting impact on the dog.

If you have a small dog and a perceived threat approaches you pick up or remove dog, the dog will relax and the threat disappears and no lasting issue for the small dog.

If I had time I would find the excellent study supporting this.

Sounds like completely normal dog behaviour to me. I wouldn’t be intervening and picking him up etc. Just try and relax. You said he wasn’t hurt so clearly the other dog is just playing/being dominant.

Whilst this is true and dogs definitely do need to learn social etiquette from other dogs, learn to play (or avoid without fear if they wish, not every dog is a social butterfly) and generally interact with the their own kind, this should be done with older, kind, well socialised adult dogs or very small groups (ie pairs) of puppies well matched in exuberance and play style. This doesn’t sound at all like what is happening here and without actually seeing what’s going on, my advice would be to avoid it like the plague - there are plenty of better options out there for appropriate mixing

Unsupervised puppies who haven t got a clue how to behave all making it up (inappropriately at best) as they go along, with overly high adrenaline is teaching every puppy in there the wrong lesson.

I couldn't disagree with this more. And I knew your you tube link would be some Caesar Milan type crap.
Yes dogs need to learn to be dogs. But puppies learn appropriate behaviour from older, well mannered dogs, not by being duffed up by bigger and stronger puppies.
A truly dominant dog can assert itself with a look - it doesn't need to resort to aggression.
The owner wasn't being reactive. She was being proactive in advocating for her puppy. Although arguably not proactive enough. One of my dogs was pinned on three occasions by young adolescent males - twice aggressively in a socialisation class and once by a rude lab on a walk. I shoulder barged the other dogs off her and dragged her out from underneath them. She is now nearly 4 years old and the least reactive dog you could meet.

No dog should be pinning another dog down out of nowhere. I have labs, as puppies they play rough, but there's no pinning down of strange dogs. Wrestling, bitey face, chasing but all with dogs and other puppies (mostly labs) who could match this energy.

You see how many people think this is normal dog play though. I wouldn't trust anything a 'trainer' says who allows this in a class session.

But OP's puppy didn't want to play or be dominated, so why should he have to?

I didn't say to leave the pup to deal with it, I said block the other dog from approaching.

I am not sure I agree that it is old advice either, as it has been covered this way in the behaviour course I am in the process of completing. They definitely suggest that an anxious owner picking up a puppy in every situation where the owner is anxious is highly likely to create anxiety in the puppy. Of course reassurance is a good thing, but there are many ways to provide that without picking up the puppy.

The trouble with these forums is that there are many ways to handle a situation, and unless we are there to witness it, we are only passing on suggestions. Every situation is slightly different.

I personally wouldn't mind rough playing as long as both puppies are happy with it.
When I see fox cubs playing in the garden, it's a lot of jumping, pinning etc...
My dog is still a bit of a rough player, but he also understands when he's going too far and never challenges a correction from another dog.
As a result, he's getting more and more gentle.

This said, I really didn't like puppy class, and I wouldn't recommend it to anyone, it just seems to be a lot of overstimulation for very little outcome. Everything you learn there can be learnt in a quieter environment.

This.

What happened is just dogs being dogs. They’re not people!

They have their own way of communicating and sometimes you just have to let them get on with it, as long as no one is getting hurt.

You’ll end up with a very anxious dog if you worry too much about things like this, as they pick up on your anxiety. Let him interact, and learn how to respond to behaviour in his own way.

What happened is just dogs being dogs

No, this is a dog being a rude dog and OP's puppy shouldn't have to deal with it.

It's not an older well mannered dog correcting a puppy's rude behaviour, it's a puppy with no idea being a pain in the bum.

I have a dog who was very shy as a puppy and not into robust play at all. I never forced interactions and always intervened if she encountered a dog being pushy. She's grown up into a delightful dog, who still isn't much interested in play and is very much dog neutral. She'll happily quickly greet and move on, can walk and play alongside other dogs, but she's not interested in anything more and that's absolutely fine.

Hi OP,
We have a Border Terrier too, best dogs ………We also have a dog at our local park that has always made a bee line for her and pinned her down, we have taken to picking her up, whilst this dog jumps up at her, mostly whilst the owner is walking in opposite direction, as they get older, they will retaliate, although I’m sure it sounds worse than what is actually happening. My advice is if you do give up on this class, find somewhere else and socialise as much as possible. My BT is quite chilled around most dogs, having been well socialised, until another dog shows their aggression, then she will retaliate. BT’s do have a bit of a reputation for being snarky so keep socialising him is my best advice. Enjoy your pup x

To clarify also in terms of my actions … this happened last week and I didn’t do anything. Then twice this week and in the second instance I did manage to pull him out/up.

So in no way was I being a helicopter parent and did give the situation time to equalise. But knowing my dog and how he acts happily with other dogs on walks and with every other dog there I could tell he wasn’t happy but had decided to do submissive. This dog was not going to leave him so I separated him.

If anything I should have acted sooner as has been pointed out. However that’s on me and lesson definitely learned, time to have a strategy for next time now

I came on to say exactly this.

Hey, I'm a dog trainer and run pet classes both puppy and adult/adolescent. I don't believe that off lead 'free play' in that environment is helpful at this stage and it's not part of my classes. Dogs learn to work around eachother first, then we talk about polite on lead greetings but all very short and sweet. Whilst it does sound like the other dog is trying to play, it doesn't sound very 'polite' and I wouldn't be happy either. I do allow my dogs to 'rough play' with eachother and their friends but I expect pauses from both dogs to check the other is happy to carry on and I keep an eye to make sure it's not always the same dog on top and the dogs are letting eachother up and swapping places regularly. I definitely wouldn't allow one dog to target another and if that was happening I'd be very selective about who I mix my dog with whilst he's maturing and learning manners.

If they are not wrestling, but your puppy is just being pinned down then I would suggest you get the other owner to remove their dog. You are well within your rights to say, "Can you grab your pup please? My dog isn't enjoying this.'

You will be doing them a service as they should be looking to manage this behaviour in their dog. It's also good practice for when you're out walking and people allow their dogs to chase/hump/harass your dog.

Thank you! He really is the best and had a lovely sniff (on lead) with a beautiful old staffy on this am’s walk. I actually think regular (although not every time) interactions like this, one on one with the other owner watching, are what are working best for him right now.

Not to a young puppy who is smaller than him in a puppy class 😳

And it's absolute bollocks. 'Social hierarchy' is outdated twaddle from the stone-age.

Anyone who has ever been around gaggles of puppies knows this. Do you know what most puppies do when one of them pins the other down? They kick them off. Dogs do not like being pinned down. Even littermates do not act in this way with each other once they pass the 6/7 week stage, why? Because it's poor manners at a very minimum.

OP is well within her rights to be unhappy and is 100% right that she avoid putting her puppy in the same situation again with a dog it does not know.

This is a good suggestion, thank you

Being aggressive in your response doesn’t make you right, it just makes you look aggressive.