Other dog pinned my dog to the floor at puppy class

[tellmewhenthespaceshiplandscoz]

Evening all - looking for some advice and a little hand hold …

So dog is 5 months old and this evening was his 4th puppy class. He’s loved it so far (if a little more hyper than I’d like after!) and on the whole had some lovely interactions with the other pooches.

Last week the leader began the class with allowing the little ones 5 minutes off lead to interact. Our boy is a Border Terrier and still a little small even for a pup. He’s not off lead at all yet so I was a littte nervous but other than being excited he seemed to enjoy and it’s a safe environment isn’t it? 😳

A French bulldog the same age as him - similar size but pure muscle - who on lead he’s been ok with made a bee line for ours and proceeded to pin him to the floor. As soon as ours got up again other dog went at it again. No biting or anything. It was then distracted by another dog and left us. My boy seemed unfazed and still himself after. All ok with all dogs on walks since.

So tonight it happens again. His owners didn’t think it was an issue and didn’t try and distract. As soon as ours got away he went for him again. Reflecting back I feel like an utterly shit owner for not doing so before but my boy was panting but silent so I picked him up and went back to our seats. Class leader said “he didn’t seem too worried”. I’m not sure though.

My guts saying this isn’t appropriate behaviour if it keeps happening and should have been nipped in the bud. My dog seemed way over exited for the rest of the session with zero concentration. Seemed a bit unsettled when we got home but snoozing on my lap now.

Right now my plan is that we choose seats well away from this dog next week and if he goes for him I’m picking my boy up immediately and we’re sitting down.

If a dog did this to him on a walk I’d address it immediately and I’m so cross hay twice now I’ve not.

Do I need to chill a bit? Is this normal socialising?

L

@Devilmentpleassure It's not aggressive to state the truth. People giving misinformation about puppy development can cause lasting damage to dogs and owners - which is what you were doing.

You may well speak the truth but your mode of delivery does you no favours.

I hate when people say their dog is showing pecking order etc- they’re pets, not pack wolves! Our cocker spaniel is a wuss and submitted/ was pinned so many times as a pup with the owners all spouting this crap at us. Meanwhile the dog is like ‘how about we don’t go socialise today, eh?’

But she is right. Its frightening to see people think this is play or that the OPs pup should be subjected to the risk of this happening again

I would question the behavioural course you are studying. Out of interest who is it with?

I am not talking about anxious owners. If a dog approaches a small dog and the dog feels anxious is it fine to pick up the dog.

Many organisations I have worked with give the dog a cue when they want to be picked up. Pretty sure there is a video out and about of Steve Mann showing how he cued his dog to stand on Steve's feet when anxious so Steve knew to pick him up.

When wil the dominance theory die!

Or the incorrect human interpretation of dogs dominance.

This thread is an eye opener to how people are still so wrong about dog behaviour. No wonder we have so many issues with dogs at the moment.

From a human point of view I find it interesting that the OP's gut feeling was that this was not the right thing for her dog. Her dog was gaining no benefit from the situation and was concerned it was increasing the dogs stress level. She describes her dog panting and becoming withdrawn from the situation. She was correct her gut feeling was correct her dog was not enjoing the situation.

The OP is right to remove her dog and stick with her humane empathic reaction which was spot on. OP do not be pushed into doubting your own ability to make the correct judgements for your dog.

Good puppy classes teach the pups to focus on their owner, not the other dogs.

But this is less fun and ‘cute’ as people want to see puppies rolling about together, so prefer these classes.

Then a puppy is hurt or frightened, but the teachers continue to put these classes on as there are always fresh customers who don’t know better.

Appreciate this Lion, thanks. This has been quite a learning moment for me as have the views in this thread. I’m going to be taking lots of it on board if we do go back.

While I’m not sure I now trust the leader to be watching and acting when needed, other than this incident he’s loved every session and met some wonderful other dogs (and they play so lovely together) and I’ve enjoyed chatting with owners who are at the same stage of their pups life as we are. As we’ve only a few more to go I am considering going back but if we do I’m going to be way more alert, trust my instincts now and be ok with saying no if his body language isn’t happy. And actually it’s only this one other pup.

Your gut feeling was correct, well done! I'd have no faith in the trainer if she thought that was acceptable but if you and your puppy are enjoying other aspects of it then it sounds perfectly reasonable just to opt out of that part.
I do not like Frenchies for that reason, they are frequently bullies and aggressive (and yes, I'm sure people have lovely ones, doodles are the ones you need to look out for, and chihuahuas yada yada. But as a dog trainer those are my observations)

My boy ..... oh dear ......

Do you have anything helpful regarding the discussion to add or are you just plopping along to mock?

He’s a male dog and I’m his owner. What’s your point?

Nobody on here witnessed the event. You may have over reacted or been spot on.

Just be aware enough to realise that a reactive dog is often anxious, unhappy and unable to interact with other dogs. A miserable life. I see them all the time on walks and they are a nightmare. Their owners are even worse.

It's a PACT course which is accredited by the ABTC.

Interesting you mention Steve Mann, I have completed several of the IMDT courses, but didn't get a great deal of value from them.

Also, I was talking about anxious owners, the OP comes across as more anxious than the dog. I see this day in, and day out. Owner anxiety definitely transfers to the dog.

Ill probably get disgruntled replies saying I'm in the wrong or whatever blah blah
But dogs have to be put in certain situations to learn but, that's not me saying let your dog get attacked.
Dogs need to learn how to react in certain situations, obviously if your pup was being pinned down and being attacked and being ripped apart you wouldn't just sit back and let it happen but it's all about situation for me in my opinion and then observing your pup in that moment. It's no good just removing him right in that moment as it's reinforcing the fact that it's scary etc.
My dog from being a pup has been put in so many positions and situations from other dogs i.e being put in his place etc and only have I intervened if he was or in danger and he's the most confident but not a cocky dog and he will only put up with so much and put another dog in it's place and I have no problem with him doing that - if another dog is harassing him and it's unwanted and I wont apologise to another dog owner for that because their dog needs to learn.

Anyway I'm waiting for the pitchforks now 😀

He isn’t reactive

And in terms of my “anxiety “ - not the same as one incident making me extremely uneasy - to clarify again, last week he his happened and I didn’t intervene. Last night I didn’t intervene the first time

Second time (actually third) this dog made a beeline for my dog who was minding his own business and no where near him, I did intervene as the owners and class leader watched on.

This wasn’t a one off. And I don’t believe it shows I am an anxious owner.

I know that Amber Bateson is ok about picking up small dogs and she is a tutor on the course you are doing. Context as always is extremely important!

Yep pitchfork here!

I am my dogs guardian. I do everything to enable them to have a happy stressfree life.

That include positive interactions but it does not and will never include interactions that cause my dog stress. If it is out of my control (which rarely happens as I am careful where I walk and watch other dogs body language carefully!) I step in. I do not expect my dogs to have to take control of a situation.

A stressed dog will never become a confident happy dog.

I never expect another dog to discipline my dogs or my dogs to discpline other dogs.

My dogs will not be put in positions where they feel they have to retailiate to other dogs to protect themselves.

I think a lot depends on the dog and the situation too.
My puppy has been 'told off' by two adult dogs when out on walks, as she was too in their face. That to me is acceptable. She needs to learn some manners and it was a quick bark, not a physical interaction.
My 3 year old is very submissive/appeasing/whatever you want to call it. She was pinned on two occasions by dogs during a socialisation class. When the dogs were pulled off her, they both escaped their owners and went back to attack her. It wouldn't matter how long I left her in that situation, she would never retaliate. She doesn't have it in her. The trainer half blamed her for being too submissive and said it would help if she could stand up for herself. I told him to fuck off.
The only time anything has happened in public was with a lab who had no recall and would race across a field to harass her. And I have barged him off her, so I can get her out from underneath him.
Her chosen method of dealing with sticky situations is to take a flying leap at me, so I will pick her up and keep her safe. Which is great when I am looking in the right direction. Not so great when I get headbutted in the face.

Indeed. My reading of the OP's situation was that the OP was more uncomfortable than the dog was. I admit that I leaned this way as it is the most common thing I see. 99% of owners these days don't know what normal dog behaviour is.

Of course, that is not necessarily the case in this instance, but none of us will ever know as we didn't witness it.

There's a big difference between two friendly puppies wrestling and pinning each other down, and one puppy bullying the other. Are they taking turns? Is the Frenchie self-handicapping? If not, that's not healthy play. Play should not involve anything that looks like one dog always dominating another (dominance is bollocks as a theory and long debunked, but it can describe a single interaction).

Here's a picture of my absolute idiot playing with his bestie as a puppy. He's happy, he's having a whale of a time. OP, you'll know if your puppy was happy or not. My pup eventually went off playing with another friend as there was too much body-slamming. Dogs have play preferences, usually breed-specific, and terriers are unlikely to enjoy bully breeds or Labs unless very carefully overseen.

There is nothing wrong with lifting up your dog to get it out of a dangerous situation, as long as he's happy to be lifted up and you only do it when you need to, not every time he's a bit wary. It doesn't sound like you're doing that. I think your instincts are right (and as ever, there's some really dodgy, crappy advice on here, that you should completely ignore).

Hi Bupster

nope definitely not taking turns and (as I’ve explained several times yet some other posters are missing this part) the Frenchie looks for my dog and runs over to him to pin him. As soon as mine gets out and tries to get away frenchie goes back at him and does it again. Last night after getting him away my boy then went under chairs behind peoples legs and just pottered when before he’d been out and about sniffing and playing

To me that reactions says “yea mum, this isn’t fun”. 😳

Ahh those two are beauts ❤️😁

Bit sensitive aren't you ?
Why did you have a dog if your nervous of every normal dog interaction.
The other dog just doesn't love your dog like you do, not everyone will. It's normal. Move on.

This wasn't a normal interaction though. And OP has been clear she didn't know if the trainer even had any qualifications and she was uncomfortable and so was her dog. Even littermates will rarely pin each other to the ground for an extended period of time - you'll often see one puppy panic (and try to push one off) or freeze (in terror).

Having bad experiences as puppies can do untold damage to dogs long term - it's why good owners have very careful interactions between the puppies and strange dogs when they are young, to set them up for success.

OP isn't being sensitive. She's understanding her dogs behaviour and responding as necessary. There should be more owners like OP.