owners of 'big' dogs, can you talk to me please

[bunnyfears]

I have an 18 month old rottweiler. she is a big smooch. she loves all other dogs and most people. her recall is 98% great.

she does 3 things that are undesirable...

1. she will bark at some passersby if she is sat in the car (waiting to leave). I can live with this

2. if a man takes her by suprise, she will bark. so for example, appearing out of the bushes, in the woods etc. I'm pretty ok with this also, because we got her for safety having encountered too many weird men out walking/intruder (me and 3 daughters)

3. she will chase after male runners and bark 😬...this is the one that is getting us into trouble. it's not aggressive but it definitely sounds aggressive if you don't really know dogs. many people are great, stop running, give her a fuss and it diffuses into nothing. but as you can imagine, some people are furious. I don't really want to keep her on a lead because 1) it happens maybe once a fortnight (haven't worked out what it is about some men that brings this response as opposed to others that she ignores or can be distracted from and 2) it's ot actually aggressive

because it's not consistent I'm at a bit of a loss

interested in other people's experiences and how they have dealt with inconsistent/occasional unwanted behaviours

uh-huh, yes control is the point of training isn't it. which is why I am here asking for peoples experiences

tbh little dogs do this un-noticed, no one bats an eyelid at a barking small dog. no one catastrophises that they are going to attack small children. dogs bark.

do you have a dog that you have trained out of occasional unwanted behaviours? could you tell me how you did it?

I had a GSD that liked to run with runners. The problem was she ran with me and didn't understand that she could run with me but not other runners. And of course, perfectly reasonably, all the other person saw was a bloody great dog running at them. The only thing I could do was keep her on a lead or at least be on the look out for runners so I could put her back on the lead while they were a decent distance away. We never managed to train her out of it

You set them up for success. That means she needs to be on a lead or long line. You call her, she comes, you give loads of praise. Or, you call her, she ignores you, you tug on the line, she decides to come after all, give loads of praise. Currently she is getting a reward (fun game of chasing runners) when she chooses not to come when you call.

Keep your dog on a lead if you can't control it. How is anyone to know your precious dog isn't dangerous?

oh my lord. which is why I am asking for advice about training out occasional behaviours. but this is clearly not the right place. I thought I posted in the Dog House, I think it's gone into Chat

Yes because a little dog couldn't maul a child or adult to death and a rottweiler could but you already know that. I hate all dogs big and small but as long as owners keep them on lead and not coming by me I just ignore. A rottweiler who barks and chases with an owner who doesn't give a shit is alot scarier than a pug barking and chasing isn't it

I strongly believe that potential dog owners should have to undergo (and pass) an intelligence test before being permitted to own one.

My little dog doesn't have the muscle power to cause life-changing injuries; your dog does. There is a massive difference. Whilst it would be great if all dogs were perfectly trained, it's imperative that yours is if it's off lead, and you shouldn't let it off unless you are 100% confident all the time.

I think it helps them to stop seeing runners as a source of excitement or a threat.
Now he completely ignores them but does tend to sometimes wander about the trail and get in their way so I tell him to “wait” and he keeps still so is easy to get past him.

Google trigger stacking in dogs. Imagine you get up and stub your toe, you then trip over your kids shoes. The kids are then really rude to you when getting ready for school. You then leave the house and someone accidently bumps in to you and you react much differently than you would if you'd had a trigger free morning.

Your dog is the same, it wont have been the first trigger that causes her to react to runners etc, its just the first you have picked up on.

You need to learn her body language.

You have bought yourself a large breed "intimidating dog" who is still a pup/just reaching maturity now and while her behaviors might seem like fun to you they are not. They are unacceptable and wardens absolutely can seize dogs that cause fear or alarm and/or slap a control order on you to keep her on lead/muzzled in public places.

As she gets older and more confident those behaviour might tip over into aggression - all it takes is one nip and she is in trouble. No one on a parenting forum can tell you what is causing these behaviours based on your biased descriptions of your pup. You need to get a profession in to support you in proper situational assessments to find out what is going on and training over the next year or so until it is rock solid.

Start off with not encouraging the habits. Do not put her in the car until you are ready to leave, do not go places with runners until you have seen someone to discuss the best way forward. Of course it won't be easy, but if you wanted easy you picked the wrong breed.

Yes, little dogs do this too. Not ideal either, but you don’t seem to appreciate that you own a breed which even people who know nothing about dogs can identify, because it has a reputation for guarding and aggression. I adore rotties but the reason I don’t have one is that I don’t want the reaction from others which they inevitably get, even the best-trained ones. The spate of rottie fatal attacks in the 80s and 90s are still very present in people’s minds and all owners must be sensitive to this. You are trying to minimise how fucking terrifying it is for a runner who doesn’t know you or your dog to be chased by her, because “she’s not aggressive”. Wrong - chasing runners in this way is aggressive. It’s part of the kill sequence, and the lucky thing is that so far she’s only doing the first steps of being triggered by movement, hunting and chasing. You simply do not know that this won’t progress to catching hold of a person with her mouth and it’s incredibly irresponsible of you to let her reinforce this behaviour. Fortnightly is not “occasional”, it is regular. Your dog is out of control in a public place and has the added burden of being a stigmatised breed. You categorically CANNOT let her off lead unless in a secure field until you have addressed this.

It can be done - police dogs sit calmly by their handler until released - but they are never allowed to chase until they have built up basic obedience first. That way they learn control before they get the adrenaline kick of the chase. Your problem is that your dog is getting very heavily rewarded by thus behaviour, it feels good, so she wants it again. The first thing is stopping it from ever happening again to break this cycle, so that means always on lead. Then I would get a trainer registered with either IMDT or APDT to work with you. I would also recommend the book Total Recall, but you need to read the chapters about teaching recall in a dog which has already developed problematic behaviour and face up to this being where you’re at.

As a PP said, big dogs off-lead can be very scary for people like me with a little reactive dog on-lead. I'm sure your dog is lovely but I couldn't take the chance of her reacting to my yappy dog so I'd have to go a different way. That would be my fault as much as yours though.

I think it's hard to stop the behaviours because you're giving your dog mixed messages. On the one hand you encourage her to be protective of you (bark at undesirable men) but on the other don't want her to bark at or chase others. It's quite a big ask to get her to distinguish between those you need protection from and those you don't.

Also you simultaneously want your dog to appear scary to protect you but then can't see why some people would be scared of a rottweiler chasing them.

The majority of people posting in dog chat are responsible owners so are going to speak out when an owner displaying irresponsible behaviour posts here. You've been given some useful advice already but you seem unwilling to take it in.

As you say you're an experienced dog owner, you should already be aware that as an 18 month old, your dog is only really leaving puppyhood behind her now, and her behaviour might change as she matures. Which is even more reason to keep her on lead and continue training. A good dog behaviourist would be the best person for you to work with.

Yes you've posted in the dog house and the reason you're getting these responses is because it's owners like you that give others a bad name.

I grew up with rotties, I love the breed. I still wouldn't want to be chased by one that I didn't know. It's scary for people, not just the person being chased either, all other people see is an out of control dog barking and chasing someone. She needs to be on a lead until you can control her, you're totally minimising what she's doing.

If she's not recalling fast enough when these things happen she isn't ready to be off lead. I'd engage with a dog trainer locally to you for advice on how to work on this and then ask for support from family or male friends to help practice and reinforce the positive behaviour but I'd engage a trainer even short term to ensure you're doing it right and not accidentally reinforcing the wrong behaviours.

@bunnyfears

You are in the doghouse, but this is the internet and there isn't a door.

You need a dog trainer. In person. Probably 1-2-1, and breed specialist.

You actively want the dog to protect you. This is not for me to judge - but your dog currently isn't protecting you. You say yourself sometimes she reacts, sometimes she doesn't - and that if the person stops running she backs off. She's not protecting, she's just excited. Same with the barking from the car - car means fun. People walking past are interesting. She's just going 'AAAAAAAAH IM GOING OUT IM SO EXCITED'. Barking when people come near the house = 'AAAAAAAAH A PERSON IS COMING TO SEE ME'.

If you want a protection dog it requires a very high level of training, so it's not unpredictable and it's done on command but ALSO because your dog will go mad if she doesn't know WHEN to protect. She'll try to do it all the time, and this is harmful to her. You can't work 24/7, nor can she. It is harmful to her to not have boundaries for this behaviour and time off from it. She will get very stressed if she thinks she's on duty and you aren't leading that.

You want to be able to stop the undesirable behaviour (chasing). To do so you can approach it in two ways - desensitisation, or command. Desensitisation is on lead, ask for calm behaviour around all runners, positive reward for no interest in runners. This is fairly easy in most dogs, just requires consistency. Command is teach to chase but ONLY when released to do so. It requires chaining of behaviours and is much more challenging, would not recommend you do this without help from a trainer.

Look for local, specialist trainers - if you want her to provide the protection you desire you need to teach her how to do it properly.

You have a Rottweiler who chases runners! Do you know how terrifying that is? That is the equivalent of running after runners waving a machete yelling ‘don’t worry, I might be in control of this situation’. I have been attacked by dogs (snarling, snapping and on one occasion biting) , my brother has been attacked by dogs (hospital treatment and massive scarring), my DH has had his running shorts shredded by a dog. My son has been chased by dogs luckily not attacked yet. All of those incidents are just one family’s experience while running. I only run on roads now as that is the only place owners like you think they have to keep their out of control dog on a lead.

Uh-huh I have been training dogs for six decades and train them out of all unwanted behaviours - occasional or not. And I don't give a shit what you think about little dogs - you are acting no differebtly than those BAD owners, because you think it's ok for unacceptable behaviours that you approve of. Or you will until the dog bites someone, just like those little dogs do! The difference is that the little dogs probably won't be put down because they bit someone. Your rotweiller will be.

But given your sarcasm and general air of "I know better than everyone else" despite the fact that everyone is telling you the same thing, I won't waste my time on an irresponsible owner who only wants to be told what they want to hear.

And no - none of my dogs bark unless on command because that is what training is for.

You are getting some good advice in between the (somewhat understandable horrified responses) and IMO you are taking it on board.

And totally agree with you about the small dog barking thing.
Or even less intimidating looking dogs. My dog (medium large mostly black collie), occasionally gets barked at by labradors (as well as little dogs ALL the time, I realise its a fear response) but if he responds, he looks like a demon which isn't fair.

I have a very large German shepherd, he isn't on a lead (unless we see another dog on a lead in which case I put him on out of courtesy to the other dog/owner) his recall is magnificent because I spent nearly two years training him relentlessly, he stops at all breaks in the road (even if it's a driveway ) and he will not cross until I say the word OVER (or overy as I said once on the phone to a friend oops). He doesn't approach other dogs or people, he walks to the inside of me close to the wall or whatever but he's the furthest away from any passer by. He was on lead until he was comfortable with ignoring any one/dog/cyclist and he trusted me and I trusted him. Every time someone walked/ran/cycled past I put him still on his lead) to the inside of the pavement or path so I was in between him and 'them', made him sit and distracted him and when the person was gone he would get a treat. Every single time. So it came to be that even on lead if there was anything else on the path and he saw them he went inside, sat and waited for his treat.

He is an exceptional dog but YOU have to put in the hard work of training.

The being startled bit is more difficult because if I'm startled by something and jump or whatever I can't expect my dog not to be startled either but if he is, he comes straight to me for reassurance and sits, I make a fuss of him and supply a treat.

You'll probably need to stop the barking at people when in the car also or you'll confuse him and he really shouldn't be barking at anyone unless you or your property is under threat. That means not putting him in the car alone whilst you get ready, you should sit with him and distract and reward in the car when he doesn't bark. (Barking at dogs is more acceptable but nicer if it doesn't happen)

OP, you do need to take this behaviour far more seriously than you are doing (or sound like you are). If for no other reason than the dog's sake - she is one chase away from finding herself on the wrong side of the law and, with her breed in mind, people will not give her a second chance.

All dogs should be under control at all times for the sake of other people but breeds such as Rotties need to be visibly under control at all times for their own sake as well. People will not allow them leeway and you need to be aware of that and behave accordingly.

You also need to understand that chasing and barking is likely to be an aggressive behaviour. Possibly not one likely to lead to a bite (individual dogs vary) but it is likely she is barking and chasing because runners make her feel nervous and so using her behaviour to warn them off. That's aggression - and even the sweetest dogs can display it. It's not a measure of how good or bad she is. But she is trying hard to communicate and you need to listen.

Please put her on a lead at all times unless you have clear line of sight in all directions and know you are not going to be surprised by anyone. Personally, even with several years of dog behaviour study now under my belt, I would not have this dog off lead in any public setting for the foreseeable.

You can then work on desensitisation. Work at a distance SHE feels comfortable - which basically means, if she reacts then you are too close to the runner and you need to be further away. Be clear on this: for many people they struggle to understand the dog needs 50m, or even 100m of distance. But if that's what she needs, that's what she needs.

Only allow less distance to the next runner if you have succesfully had several occasions of non reaction. If she ever reacts, go back a stage and have more distance next time.

It can help to use treats to partner desensitisation with counter conditioning. If she looks at the runner and then looks away (e.g. to you) without reaction, mark the behaviour with something like short praise and treat her. The idea is that, over time, she finds it rewarding not to stare/focus on the runner but instead to focus on something else. Focussing on you is an especially good option. Be preppared for this to take 100s of repeitions over several months to get good progress. Consistency is key to this - there are no short cuts.

Please take this seriously. It can be hard to hear that people find your dog threatening when you know her to be a sweet dog with you. But you must put your ego aside and do what is best for her - you must keep her safe by visibly keeping everyone else safe.

I totally get that unknown men can be scary, OP. And that past experiences of them make you wary. I could say (and it would be true!) that my husband and sons are 'big smooches' and very friendly, or rather that they aren't dangerous. But a strange man stepping round the corner in a quiet wood can set off our fear signals, never mind if they're just out for a walk intending no harm to anyone else. We don't know that.

And that is exactly how people feel when your rottweiler barks and chases them. It's really, really scary - and many people have previous bad experiences with dogs, especially runners. I think if you have an intimidating breed it doesn't matter how gentle they are - they are capable of really frightening people and I think the fact you're fine with her barking at men is a bit of a problem, even if understandable. She's getting the message there that this behaviour is acceptable or even desirable and that could ramp it up. Along with her chasing after runners, she's becoming a menace as far as other people are concerned.

The dog chased me and I was terrified?
Something like that possibly?