To think raising a problem frree dog used to be easier?

[LemonPalmz]

OK, so maybe it's just me. I spent my younger decades reading all about dogs, their psychology and training and it just made sense. Now the modern methods kinda makes sense - positive rewards, let dog choose good behaviour etc. But there's something huge missing and it shows in my dog's behaviour. He doesn't 'respect' me. Sometimes playing exhilarating, breathtaking game of chase with new dog chum in park is just so much more fun and more interesting than me with my pocket of dog treats. Sometimes he's deaf to my calls. In short, I just can't leave it up to my 13mo dog anymore to decide what he wants to do and when! I can't keep bribing him with bigger rewards. I know about dangers he could face out there. He doesn't. He needs to listen to me because I said so! I don't believe in dominance theory per say. I know my pup has no plans to rule his world. But he does have plans to do what he wants, when he wants to and it just won't do! I've tried my best stern voice. It rarely works. I'm wanting to go back to the kind methods of my younger years. They work! For example Gwen Bailey's ways of teaching a dog to look upon you as leader. My dog is clever. But there is no way on this earth he can keep himself safe, happy and well without my leadership or equivellent. I want to leave modern methods behind and go back to kind methods of 1990s!!! Am I wrong?

Each dog is so individual. I find the best method is the one that works for that dog - trust your gut. Obviously I'm not advocating abuse or fear training, but there needs to be common sense!

We used modern methods and have a fabulous dog with great recall etc. glad I didn’t scare him into obeying. Neighbours tried that and their dog is anxious and barks all day.

Well, you have a 13 month old dog - of course he doesn't respect you or come back to you in the park. It's his age.

Put him on a lead, use a long line in the park, problem solved as you'll have control back. He'll grow out of it with time and training. And potentially being castrated.

I think you're right, when I was a kid (70s/80s) dogs were just dogs, there didn't seem to be so many complications of behaviour. Now (some of us) coddle our dogs and treat them like children, and get so bamboozled by outdated dominance theory, pack theory, aversive vs non-aversive methods etc that we tie ourselves in knots about how best to deal with unwanted behaviours. Dog is more confused than we are.

I've had 3 dogs. 1st dog - aggressive, feral nightmare from 10 weeks old, went to 6 behaviourists but it was 12 long years of careful management. 2nd dog - lovely temperament, perfect in every way (he's 4). 3rd dog - not aggressive but barky high-energy knobhead, done all his classes and paid for 1x1 consultations about his pulling and reactivity twice, no change. He's 2.

Definately not talking about intimidating my dog or scaring him in any way. That definately won't work and nor would I want it to. Just talking about the force free methods of 90s like not sharing my dinner with him; not constantly bribing him with bigger and better treats for every little thing I want him to do; not letting him push through doorways ahead of me; puting toy I've been involved with away at end of game etc. These methods seemed to work for decades of well behaved dogs. My current methods simply are not working. I can't keep trying to persuade a 35kg lab with yet more treats. I do know best and have his best interests truly at heart. E.g. I know he must not steal neighbour's posessions! Even if he doesn't understand why. Even of he finds doing so more rewarding than a treat. Sometimes he just needs to listen to me because I said so, surely?

Have you done any puppy training school? If not, do it (it trains YOU to be the dog owner you want to be and trains your dog to be the pet you need it to be). It’s not too late at all. Plus, you’re coming into the teens which can be such a challenging time.
You need to be taught, in person and by a professional, how to teach your dog. It’s essential. I was taught how to be the alpha in puppy school by a brilliant instructor. Everything my dog learned from me I had learned from our instructor.

All the alpha stuff was debunked in the 50s. Until your dog develops opposable thumbs, and gets a credit card, he knows who feeds him. That doesn't necessarily mean he respects you though.

I'm not sure what you mean about ever increasing treats? I rarely treat my dog, and am still able to encourage him to make what he thinks he wants align with what I would like him to do most of the time.

I think I'm with you on this. We've never gone with the pack order theory either and we do very little in the way of treats, but somehow we've ended up with well-adjusted dogs.

I’ve got a working terrier. She’s just won her first award for obedience at competition. She has only been trained with ‘modern’ methods (reward, management, choices). No treats in the ring. Lots of treats when learning that it’s fun. 99% of the time she does as I ask first time. If not she’s either not understanding or something is more interesting.

Dogs have changed. More bred deliberately with no regard to temperament or health. No regard to the mix you may get. Many more mixed breeds which often are a mix of really sparky working breeds in pet homes.

None of the dogs in the sports at the high levels are bullied to get there. It’s impossible. So are their dogs different? Of course not. Reward and that is what is valuable to the dog works. The dog needs to want to do it especially a non handler focused breed.

I think the biggest issue is that so many people believe that "reward" = "treats". It doesn't. There are many ways to reward a dog. Treats is just one.

I think it really depends on the dog, your own expectations and how knowledgeable & experienced your instructor is.
Plus, dog training takes TIME. Your dog has just turned one, he's still figuring things out.

@PyreneanAubrie I have a large independently minded lab who gives me a run for my money! I admire you for being able to raise much larger, much more independently minded breed (PMD) to be consistently well adjusted dogs without going OTT on treats. I think you must be getting a heck lot right in your approach.

To be honest you sound like you are trying to justify using dominance and aversive methods. In reality you have a teenage dog going through the toughest stage. Of course he doesn't listen he is 13 months old. It's a stage most dogs go through. But it doesn't justify using methods that ultimately do nothing but ruin your relationship with your dog.
Put him on a long line. Let him off in secure places only and keep working on it. He will come right but he needs to grow up a bit first

Labs are known for being dickhead teens. Nothing wrong with being firm though. I get stern with mine, put them on the lead and ignore them if they misbehave. Then praise them loads when good. Never obviously hit them or shout at them.
All 5 dogs I've had over the last 25 years have been dicks at 13 months!

As I've said up thread, I'm not even contemplating aversive methods. But I do need to adjust my approach to a more effective one. Keeping our dogs safe and well in today's human world necessitates some from of leadership on our part. There were an abundance of non aversive dog trainers and training methods in 90s too! It's those those Im referring to. By respect, I mean the dictionary definition (e.g. to feel or show a deep admiration for someone based on their qualities or abilities). I think by definition that's
non aversive and arguably what most dogs and their people feel for each other. When I talk about trying to get dog to respect me more I mean just that - a healthy, balanced, happy, secure, dog to person relationship of mutual respect.

Thanks for all the positive comments and feedback. It's reassuring to hear from so many people who have experienced their dog's behaviour improving with age and from people who've found their own kind and effective approaches to training their dogs :-)

We can't sit our dogs down and explain to them why they must come back when we call them (e.g. if we interpret a potential danger ahead which they dont); why they must not cross road until we tell them; why they must not jump up at strangers; never bite at people, snatch food from people etc. Sometimes I believe dogs really do just need to understand it's "because we said so".
I don't want my dog's only guiding compass to be "what is most rewarding in this moment?" I don't believe that's enough to keep him safe in this human world (or how most adult dogs think all the time either). But how to teach my dog that that I'm struggling with!

If you are within an hour of Winchester, I'll happily give you an hour of my time for free to give you some pointers. I am a dog trainer.

Honestly, I think you've just forgotten what it's like to have an adolescent dog who doesn't listen to you.

Surely by offering bigger and better treats...you're rewarding the bad behaviour?

It's like telling a kid "come on, her to school I'll give you a £1* and when they ignore you "ok, a fiver then" and then you've set the bar for going to school as £5...

Agree. Drugs and money dogs don’t get food treats, a bit of fuss and perhaps a couple of minutes with a toy then they are back to work after just finding a kilo of cocaine!

It took my dog a lot longer to learn "NO!" than it did for him to understand the significance of praise and rewards, but he did learn it in the end. And I do emphatically think it is wrong to try and achieve training results just through positive reinforcement.

The trouble is that all the theorising and half-informed talk of dominance theory, pack mentality and so on just creates white noise that gets in the way of a perfectly humane commonsense approach.

Of course training should be squarely based on praise and reward but it is completely easy and kind to combine this with assertive owner-behaviours that let your dog see that he is behaving in an unwanted way. We even do this with our children, for goodness sake. Why wouldn't we do it with our dogs?

You don't have to dress these owner-behaviours up with silly ideas of dominance, and you certainly don't have to use them as an excuse for behaving in an intimidating way.

In one of your posts, OP, you mention not letting dogs barge through doors ahead of you, and I think this is an example of the kinds of situation in which the owner can set limits by using their body in a confident way. You can firmly and calmly put yourself between the dog and the door, displacing him from the position he wants to be in and requiring him to respect your occupancy of the space. I have done that a lot when my dog is over-excited at the front door when a visitor has knocked. I can see how it calms him. A switch goes in his brain and his whole body says "Oh, ok, I'm not the one who has to manage this situation".

And as well as using your body, I think it is fine to use your voice firmly to interrupt undesirable behaviours. I found it really hard to work out how to do this (perhaps because of all the focus on positive reinforcement) but eventually life takes over, and situations accumulate in which you instinctively adopt a sharp "NO!" (most often, for me, it has been when my dog starts rolling in fox poo but of course it is also going to be whenever the dog starts doing something that is potentially dangerous for himself or others).

That isn't "dominance", etc. In some cases it mimics an instinctive parenting behaviour (keeping a young one safe), in others it just replicates the boundaries that all social social creatures routinely create and reinforce just so that they can get along together without constantly being hassled.

I have a PRT, and like many terriers these dogs adopt a slightly wary approach to the world: If humans behave towards them in an intimidating way they will very quickly learn that they are not to be trusted. So it has always been very necessary for me to understand the difference between being calmly assertive and being intimidating. It isn't hard to maintain that distinction in practice! I'm not trying to dominate him, just allowing him to see that there are some boundaries to his behaviour. And it is very evident how reassuring he finds those boundaries.

If you're putting your dog in exciting situations and expecting them to come to you because you've got a bit of biscuit it really sounds like you don't really understand what a lot of training is about. In the first two years at least, a lot of it is about managing the environment. Don't put them in situations where they're likely not going to make the right choices.

Recall, of course, is one of the few situations in which , frustratingly, you can't easily use any kind of negative reinforcement. It pretty much has to be done on the basis of positive reinforcement only, which is why the long lead can be so useful.

However, I do think there is a little bit of scope for a sharp word in some situations where the dog doesn't come immediately. It is really, really hard to get the timing right, and it can only work at all if the dog is quite close.

My dog is an obsessive sniffer and will often hang around a particularly fragrant patch of grass after I have called him. I have slowly begun to learn that there is scope for a very firm "NO!" when he moves slightly away from me in these situations as well as the "YES! Good dog!" when he moves slightly towards me. It is a work in progress and it is only relevant for these near-stationary situations, not for when he is racing after a rabbit or whatever. But it is quite an interesting and productive exercise.

Use the methods you want to if you are sure they will work - they wont but if that is what you want to do nothing is stopping you. Some of it will be aversive.

Dogs have changed, peoples perception of dogs have changed but the basic scientific idea that dogs will repeat behaviour that is rewarded has not changed.

However what a dog thinks is rewarding to what we think is rewarding are two different things.

Look forward to seeing how you are going to get you 13 month old lab to respect you.and to o feel or show a deep admiration for someone based on their qualities or abilities. Good luck with that one.

Positive reinforcement is not about throwing treats around as a distraction which it sounds like you are doing.