To think raising a problem frree dog used to be easier?

[LemonPalmz]

OK, so maybe it's just me. I spent my younger decades reading all about dogs, their psychology and training and it just made sense. Now the modern methods kinda makes sense - positive rewards, let dog choose good behaviour etc. But there's something huge missing and it shows in my dog's behaviour. He doesn't 'respect' me. Sometimes playing exhilarating, breathtaking game of chase with new dog chum in park is just so much more fun and more interesting than me with my pocket of dog treats. Sometimes he's deaf to my calls. In short, I just can't leave it up to my 13mo dog anymore to decide what he wants to do and when! I can't keep bribing him with bigger rewards. I know about dangers he could face out there. He doesn't. He needs to listen to me because I said so! I don't believe in dominance theory per say. I know my pup has no plans to rule his world. But he does have plans to do what he wants, when he wants to and it just won't do! I've tried my best stern voice. It rarely works. I'm wanting to go back to the kind methods of my younger years. They work! For example Gwen Bailey's ways of teaching a dog to look upon you as leader. My dog is clever. But there is no way on this earth he can keep himself safe, happy and well without my leadership or equivellent. I want to leave modern methods behind and go back to kind methods of 1990s!!! Am I wrong?

Honestly, everything you describe is typical behaviour for a 13 month old dog. He's in the adolescent "nobody matters but me" phase where they lose half their training knowledge. Use a long line, keep up with training, set him up for success. Don't try and recall him when he's sniffing something super interesting because it won't work and it will become white noise to him.

All the positive/force free methods are rooted in science and evidence and I really hate that people still use fear/punishment/pain to control dogs. Makes me so sad.

I do agree that dog behaviour is worse, but lots of that is due to different factors like: loads of people having dogs so there's more problems, poor breeding and genetics, our lifestyles being busier etc etc

I'm sure a properly qualified dog trainer/behaviourist would reassure you that his behaviour is normal and help you work to move forward. I always recommend dog trusts' behaviour helpline and the ABTC website

But your dog is constantly assessing what is the most rewarding behaviour for him at any given time. Dogs do what works for dogs.
What you need to achieve is him thinking that following your cues is, indeed, the most rewarding option.
You're unlikely to achieve this purely with a pocket full of treats!

@LemonPalmz what @shaniatwainfan says! I've got a hooligan of a six month old pup from working lines and he currently has great recall, but it's not bombproof, because some things will always be more rewarding to a puppy, and that will get worse as he gets older.

Your dog is never going to do things 'because you say so,' any more than you did as a teenager. Either he does it because it's rewarding, or it's habit, or because he's scared of you. Dogs aren't wolves and don't have a pack hierarchy - all of that is long debunked.

I'd like for my dog to eventually do this stuff out of habit, but I never want him to do things because he's scared of me. That's basically the difference between positive training and aversive.

None of it is about throwing around ever bigger treats, or talking your dog into things, or bribery. You teach him that some behaviour is more rewarding than others, and eventually, that's his habit. That's it.

PS just to add - the closest you'll get to 'because I said so' is if your dog trusts you enough to do something he is wary of or doesn't understand. A track record of you never scaring him and those things turning out to mostly be rewarding is probably going to make that a lot more likely than the alternatives.

Thanks for all the positive responses. Probably worth clarifying, my dog knows and follows lots of commands enthusiastically. He very enjoys training sessions with me and his weekly training class. He will heal, wait, stay, leave it, give, recall, sit, down stay, all instantly and close to 100% reliably - if he knows I have treats and there's noone else around. He has some varying degrees of success without treats and / or with others around. Training classes are really helping him with distractions and he's getting better at this. We're working through canine good citizen awards and I plan on us going on to advance obidience after that, probably for years. I've always wanted a well trained dog and he's very trainable and as a PP said, labs are an intelligent breed. I've taught him near perfect manners in car, he 100% reliably sits quietly and calmly when travelling, waits to get in and out of car on command.
He very rarely barks inside or outside and if he does will stop if I tell him to. He's good natured and friendly with everyone, well socialised to town, country, traffic, shops, people, dogs, objects etc. I've taught him lots more basics like not to whine to try to make me go faster (preparing his food etc) as I've consistently ensured hes never once been inadvertently rewarded for that. I still have a very long way to go with his training but am fully committed to goingbthe full distance with it and to learning what I don't know. He'll still jumps up at strangers, can't be let off lead around people or dogs yet (due to recall then not being reliable and possibility of jumping up). This means he doesnt get to play with dogs as much as we'd both like. He constantly countersurfs and tries to climb on furniture. (I'm currently sitting with him in livingroom with him on a long lead so I can quietly interrupt those behaviours). He also still has moments of stealing anything - from my shoes to my neighbour's umbrella, to a friend's blanket. He still occassionally tries to push his way into rooms he's not allowed in etc. It's difficult to find anyone who is willing to watch him even for a few hours because he can be so relentless and so full on in trying to get to food and trying to steal and chew up anything and everything. I bought him 5 new toys today and will be stocking up on a big box full which I'll rotate to try to prevent this. I also need to find doggy play dates for him somehow as he's extremely sociable but so rarely gets to play with other dogs. So he's 100% a handful for hours every day but he has great potential. I rarely tell him off and that's part of problem. Trainers and other participants in training classes have told me I should correct his behaviours more with a stern no or an "ah ah". Due to his size, strength and boisterouness I do always carry treats out doors as it's best way to control him reliably until he's fully trained.
I've lived with dogs over the years (never my own) and they've all loved and respected me and done as I've asked because they wanted to, no treats required. My dog is different. He doesn't much enjoy being stroked and doesn't seem to be affected by praise unless it's combined with food. He likes toys but not enough to consider them a reward. Whereas he'd do anything for small piece of food so food does tend to be my go to reward. I think part of the problem is that he's more independently minded and pushy than any other dog I've known whereas I'm naturally quite and sensitive. Im not naturally skilled at managing those types of behaviours. His independence has it's benefits. No seperation anxiety for example. Even his pushiness has some benefits too. He'll happily persist with training and he's not easily adversely affected by my countless mistakes. He bounces back quite easily from bad experiences like other dogs taking a dislike to him too. He's literally never barked or growled at any dog even of they've done it to him. I think he's a great dog. I'm far from perfect and have made so many accidental mistakes with him. He's loved and could not be more wanted. I am always learning and trying to do better and so is he! I like to think there's still some hope for me as a trainer! Although at times he does do an excellent impersonation of never having had a moment's training in his life.

It sounds like you’re doing a brilliant job ❤️ teenage dogs can be absolute dickheads 🤣

Honestly, OP, it sounds like you're doing a great job and I wouldn't worry about what others say about 'correcting' him. He doesn't understand 'no' because dogs can't understand it, they can only understand the behaviour you actually want, and you're doing everything you can. He's just, like mine, a bit of a pain in the arse - I think some dogs are. Bet you end up with a brilliant dog within six months.

I got a photo of the first time my dog was “Defiant “
She decided she’d rather NOT come, thank you very much, but would rather stand out of reach on the flower bed.

I offered a treat, thinking it would work- but nope, she sniffed it and stood out of reach.

Most definitely “Teenagery” defiance and cheekiness at that time!

@BoobyDazzler
He likes toys but not enough to consider them a reward.
You can build value in a reward - one of my dogs isn't that interested in food, but I kept on plugging away, pairing it constantly with praise and attention, because it's very handy to have variety of ways to capture your dog's attention.

Similarly with toys. If you can find games he likes to play, you can mix them up with food until he gets the same dopamine rush from the squeaky ball that he gets from a treat, and you have another lever in your tool box. Plus play is a great way of building a strong bond with your dog.

I do tell my dogs 'no' and 'uh-uh'. They both know that it means 'stop what you are doing and look at me'. It's very handy if the older one sees a tennis ball being thrown in the distance - 'NO!' I shout as she prepares to tank off to steal said ball. She stops, turns, looks at me. 'Good girl! Come here!' And there is a treat or some fuss or her own ball or little bit of heelwork followed by reward of some sort.

It sounds as if you're doing a really good job. Enjoy your dog - it's fun to train them, and clever dogs enjoy it too.