To think raising a problem frree dog used to be easier?

[LemonPalmz]

OK, so maybe it's just me. I spent my younger decades reading all about dogs, their psychology and training and it just made sense. Now the modern methods kinda makes sense - positive rewards, let dog choose good behaviour etc. But there's something huge missing and it shows in my dog's behaviour. He doesn't 'respect' me. Sometimes playing exhilarating, breathtaking game of chase with new dog chum in park is just so much more fun and more interesting than me with my pocket of dog treats. Sometimes he's deaf to my calls. In short, I just can't leave it up to my 13mo dog anymore to decide what he wants to do and when! I can't keep bribing him with bigger rewards. I know about dangers he could face out there. He doesn't. He needs to listen to me because I said so! I don't believe in dominance theory per say. I know my pup has no plans to rule his world. But he does have plans to do what he wants, when he wants to and it just won't do! I've tried my best stern voice. It rarely works. I'm wanting to go back to the kind methods of my younger years. They work! For example Gwen Bailey's ways of teaching a dog to look upon you as leader. My dog is clever. But there is no way on this earth he can keep himself safe, happy and well without my leadership or equivellent. I want to leave modern methods behind and go back to kind methods of 1990s!!! Am I wrong?

So many people teach recall using operant conditioning and this is where it can go wrong.

Use good old fashioned classical conditioning and you will have a prettyy bomb proof recall espcially with a lab.

I think that my expectations regarding "obedience" are just generally lower, because, as I say ad nauseam on the puppy/adolescent threads, you'll never get that with a LGD anyway. We learned early on that there's no point beating yourself up over recall with our breed because some of them get it but others just never will. It's also not a food driven breed so training treats are largely ignored. So our dogs aren't ever 'trained' in the conventional sense but they've all been sociable and well-mannered; they understand basic commands (no, leave it, wait etc). At home they're calm and quiet but that's true of giant breeds in general. But my level of obedience/training is low because of my breed. Some trainers would probably say that's a "cop-out"/"lazy" but I don't really need or want (or expect) more, I just like a calm dog that's easy to live with. So you would not come in my house and think my dog/dogs well-trained, they most definitely aren't but nor have they ever been problem dogs with bad habits.

In a way, my comment isn't that relevant here, aside from the fact that we've never adhered to the pack order/dominance viewpoint but still (somehow) reared gigantic dogs, that are never crated but learn to understand what is "acceptable" behaviour from the start at 8/9/10 weeks old. As you say yourself on this thread, the aim is to have a relationship based on mutual respect.

I have to admit though, if you asked me to train a higher energy breed like yours is, I wouldn't have a clue what to expect. But really, the lead pulling aside, I seem to be having it easy with this puppy compared to most on the puppy/adolescent threads, and it's probably partly from 47 years of being inside a Pyrenean head and knowing exactly what I can realistically expect. So yet again, it comes down to the expectations vs the reality and that seems to be very much a recurring theme from every puppy owner that we see on these threads.

So, as usual, my comment is more just a series of rambling observations than actually being in any way helpful or constructive in regard to the original question 🤔🙄😬

I agree with you @LemonPalmz dogs needs boundaries, that doesn't mean you have to be harsh or cruel - far from it.
We all want our dogs to be safe, and for that they need to understand No

My dogs have clear boundaries. Physically - do not go upstairs and also for example where to walk when walking on a lead, next to me with a loose lead.

These were not taught by aversives or respect. Just more rewarding position to be in than the alternative.

My terrier has trained me that when she looks at me then comes back she gets a treat. Every time when she was younger. Then most times. Then less. Now it's enough for her to gamble every time ;)

Choice. Much more powerful than anything else.

Its like gentle parentung but for dogs!

I think it's more that we know better, so we do better.

I do wonder @LemonPalmz if it's to do with more outside influences that it feels more difficult to you... That we are bombarded with training videos and tips from all different sources and everyone has a different opinion on force-free training vs aversive training vs somewhere in between. Does that have an effect? Is it that there is too much pressure on getting it right? Whereas, as you mention, years ago we just had a Gwen Bailey book or whatever... (and maybe even laughed at Barbara Woodhouse on the beeb for those who are very, very old like me...).

I don't know. I sometimes worry that I come across as an arrogant know-it-all (probably do) but it's more the fact that 8 pups in, I just don't feel any pressure and that makes it easy. Does that make sense? Is it all the social media pressure that you're struggling with? Because I don't think raising a dog has really changed greatly; there have always been and will always be dog owners who use dominance and others who take the gentle approach. That won't change, but it's just that now we feel judged and, whatever we do, someone will view it as wrong.

The only other thing that's changed is that now almost everybody crates whereas before, most people didn't use crates or cages inside the home. But that, I know, is an entirely different topic... 🙄

I believe a lot of people don't know how to train a dog.

It's not a one size fits all, quick fix approach either.
The majority of dogs mature at around 18-24 months. That's how long it takes to train a dog properly - and that's for starters.

Working with your dogs traits and giving a dog a natural outlet seems to be missing for a lot of dogs when it comes to training and owning them.

OP'S dog is an energetic, intelligent breed at 13 months old. It still needs a lot of training as well as clear signals.

I think standing in a field, flapping your arms with treats and repeatedly calling Fido come, won't teach recall. The dog knows you have the treats, it also knows you are waiting for him to finish playing... if it's very clever, it might even know that the food will be eventually dished out during the walk!
Yet I see the above scenario again and again.

The thing is, back in the 79s, 80s and even 90s there was an element of self selection.

If a dog was trouble, chances were it would be dumped or put down (and another bought for £10 from a bloke down the pub). People only kept the easy dogs.

That hasn't changed. People do it all the time.

Absolutely.

I've read multiple posts on here over the years from people whose childhood dogs were "sent to live on a farm" or who "ran away" or they just came home from school to find their dog wasn't there anymore.

There was also a time where dogs were just left to roam all day, or were chained up in the garden while people worked, so a lot of the modern day behavioural issues just weren't a "thing" back then as the dog wasn't around as much.

*That hasn't changed. People do it all the time.

Sorry, posted too soon.

I think people are becoming more judgmental about getting rid of dogs though - people are encouraged to get a trainer or a behaviourist, or to try other solutions first, whereas in the past dogs were just passed on without a second thought.

Imo a lot of dog owners lack common sense and any understanding of dog behaviour, and yes, there are a lot of dogs bred these days for looks, rather than temperament and lots of dogs living in completely unsuitable environments without their basic needs being met.

The word aversive doesn’t always mean “harsh or cruel”, it isn’t be lovely or be evil. 100% positive training is a nice concept but wouldn’t have worked my any of the dogs I’ve ever owned and my training methods is probably 98% positive with a telling off/turning my back on him/growling at him
(I have a whole range of sounds that aren’t words 😂 ) making up the 2% these would be classed as aversive but none of these are harsh or cruel. He might not like me turning my back on him and ignoring him when he’s being rude, demanding attention and getting on my nerves but it cruel it is not.

Yeah, it may be true to some extent I suppose, but it still happens.

There's always stuff in the media as you probably know - recently Katie Price and Lily Allen were both criticised for getting rid of "problem" pets and then getting a replacement. I think a lot of people do just use the behaviourist/trainer line as an excuse to say they've "tried" but they've probably already decided to get rid/rehome.

Oh, totally @PyreneanAubrie I just think it was a bit more socially acceptable 20-30 years ago.

whereas in the past dogs were just passed on without a second thought.

And not just passed on - because there were fewer people who wanted a dog so fewer potential homes and you could get a 'brand new' dog for just a few pounds, or for free, so no financial incentive to take on an adult dog. There were fewer reputable rehoming charity options.

When I said 'dumped' I literally meant dumped. Left out on the street or worse. It was not that unusual to hear stories about dogs being drowned etc. I recall them even in the 90s.

Op , you gave a male lab teenager. They famously take a long time to mature. They are also often very sociable. My male lab was hard work at that age. Long lines are useful, plus constant, and I do mean constant, reinforcement.

I use a whistle - and give a little wolf-whistle noise on it. Instant recall.

also took mine running with me - lots of stops, going at his pace. But my unpredictable movements kept him interested.

I don’t think dogs are harder these days ; I think there are a lot more dogs about distracting each other, and a lot of owners indulge said dogs more .

A huge part of training a dog is having the dog in the right mindset, which with some dogs means making sure that their needs are fulfilled. (Others will just sell their souls for food or a squeaky ball.)

I train my dogs with mostly positive reinforcement - treats, play, fuss, praise. All new behaviour is taught and developed using +R.

Recently I've been using negative reinforcement to get the little buggers to chill out when we're getting ready for a walk: if they start jumping about and whining, I just sit down and get my phone out and don't start to get ready again until the sit or lie down and (mostly) shut up. It would be much easier to shape their behaviour this way if only DH was on board....

I keep aversion to the minimum, but I have needed it to get reliable recall around game and livestock. Where I live, there is literally nowhere that I can walk my dogs off-lead where I can guarantee no rabbits, no hares, no muntjac, no roe, and no low-flying pheasants, and also no escaped stock. If DH meets a sheep out on a footpath when running with the dogs, I want the dogs to run past (they do). If the dogs spot a muntjac at dusk, I want them to stay close to me (they do). If the dogs flush a rabbit from bracken, I want them not chase and to recall to me (they do). I still can't guarantee their reliability on hares (we're working on that, we don't flush hares very often) but they're a lot better than they were.

Hares are our nemesis too! I'm sure last time she only recalled as there were three of them heading in different directions and she couldn't choose which to follow!

Hares are a nightmare. They lie close to the ground and don't seem to shed much scent, so the dogs aren't sure where they are until they're almost on them. they then flush about a foot in front of the dogs...

According to a gamekeeper friend of mine, if two hares flush and the dog begins coursing one, the other one will keep tabs, and then move in as the first hare tires to take over the course to give the first one a rest. A bloke I see out dog walking swears blind that this happened to his dog: he told me the whole long saga.

This is in the category of Countryside Lore and I've never seen it, so I'm not 100% sure that it is true.

Yes this. My dog is massively play & toy motivated. He rarely gets food rewards. Food wouldnt stop him chasing a squirrel etc. But the chance i might throw a ball or play tug will stop him and ive built up the value in that & me.

You might just need to find your dog's thing.

Also no-ones 13 month old dog listens to them😁

Mine has only gone after a hare once and it’s been the only thing he’s ever not called off immediately but he’s a lurcher so I guess what he’s bred to do. And yes, it popped up a few meters away from where we were in a stubble field full of people! Thankfully, hares are rare where we live and he’s not bothered about livestock, deer, or birds. I didn’t give him a ticking off after the hare incident as I was in complete awe of the speed of them both and it would have been a bit pointless after the event. Thankfully the hare got away unscathed which is more than can be said for the dog who managed to scratch himself to bits launching through a hedge at full speed.

I’m very careful in stubble fields now and keep a squeaky ball primed and ready.. squeeky balls top small furries.

@EdithStourton that brought back some memories! We had Whippets growing up, and I could swear that the Hares knew when we walked the dogs!
Every day, dogs would find them in the same spot and off they went with a game of chaise. We also witnessed the swapping on the odd occasion.

I think Hares are underestimated, I could swear they did this to protect their hiding/ sleeping places.