Unsure about negative dog trainers

[DuckEggy]

I think I know the answer to this and need to trust my own gut, however ...

Situation 1: dog trainer shouted at my dog for doing something

Situation 2: I was advised to harshly reprimand my dog and avoid them seeing an animal they were barking at by obstructing them

Both were professionals with a good reputation locally.

My stance tends to be rarely to tell my dogs off as such, reward for good behaviour and try and avoid or ignore bad behaviour or ask for a more positive one instead.

There are exceptions, because I'm human! - if my pup jumped up and hurt me I'd probably shout out in pain - or if they were about to push past me to get to something dangerous in the food bin, I'd say a harsh 'no'.

Generally though, I don't want to shout at them. If they are being stubborn or bolshy, I will be firm but not loud. They are not lap dogs and come from working heritage.

Am I being too feeble? Out of text book and in real life, is it necessary to raise a voice? Barky dog would have continued to bark whether I shouted at them or not.

Nope not being feeble. Being intelligent and understanding how dogs learn.

Find another trainer

Have you seen a wolf pack in real life, or any pack animals. There is a strict hierarchy and toughest animal is on top. You can’t reason with a dog, you are going to be fairly robust ( without being cruel) to gain and maintain your place at the top of your dogs pack. It is programmed to exploit any sign of weakness.

Its not a child OP.

That was surely disproven decades ago.

What are you trying to achieve @DuckEggy ?
You might be better off with a behaviourist rather than a trainer.

Sorry @cuckyplunt but your advice is outdated and to be ignored.

Dogs aren't wolves 😂

I'd avoid this trainer, they'll make the situation worse as your dog will associate the situation with being told off, but just keep the negative part, not reason "I shouldn't do X".
We have had great success with positive trainer (and patience!) for a reactive Shepherd.

That pack /dominance stuff is widely discredited nowadays

I'm not really trying to achieve anything! These were classes for fun, as a hobby. Good enrichment for the dogs and good for me socially.

One trainer really is top of her field, which is why I'm questioning myself.

Two different trainers by the way.

Yes, I think it was stressing both of us out.

Look for a force free, positive reinforcement trainer OP. Look at enrichment activities, maybe try a few different ones, depending on your dogs breed. Agility, hoopers, mantrailing, gundog, tracking, flyball..all help calming and training.
Unfortunately there are utter knobs out there.
Dominance theory was disproved a long time ago...or the same could be said about children 😅...spare the rod, spoil the child..that was disproved too..

Unfortunately "dog trainer" isn't a protected title - anyone can claim to be one (see Graeme Hall).

He's managed to build a hugely successful career as a "master dog trainer" but he doesn't have a single qualification to his name.

I'd find a positive reinforcement trainer or just do it yourself I get dogs can be a total pest sometimes but shouting at them and showing "dominance" just scares them. Although a well placed NO works well.

As @fieldsofbutterflies says, it is a totally unregulated industry sadly.

I would find a different trainer.

If you are near Winchester, I know a good one 😇

@cuckyplunt actually that theory was debunked by the person who first created it.

There are two gundog trainers near me. One is the ‘old fashioned’ type with jerking thin slip leads, ear pulls, hissing, shouting etc and one is force free, using distraction instead of blocking, repetition to reinforce behaviour etc. They both get exactly the same results, maybe the first one gets them slightly quicker, but I know which one I’d choose and which one my vet’s behaviourists recommend.

Shouting at a dog isn't training but all dogs need to be comfortable with a loud shout. I.e if you shout a command from a distance they should still perform it ( down, sit wait, here) and not startle or bolt from it.
Same for all loud sudden noises. You want your dogs nerves to be bullet proof if off lead for their safety.

I'm not a believer in ignore bad behaviour ( depending on the severity of course) because ignoring doesn't solve it. You are managing unwanted behaviour that's all. If my dogs happen to chew a pair of shoes whatever, its a boredom behaviour. Train and stimulate them more. But if they were lunging, barking, attacking, jumping, biting etc that shouldn't be ignored.

If you are completely against corrections then stick with a positive only trainer.
IF however you find it's not enough then please try and find a reputable balanced trainer. Someone saying they are a trainer is not enough. Training is essential to keep your dogs happy and safe. Sometimes that can make you uncomfortable as an owner but that's part of it. If your dog broke the lead, escaped and attacked or killed someone's cat, dog or child you'd be alot more uncomfortable then you'd feel correcting it in the first place.
Positive only can work for SOME dogs but not all so bare that in mind. Try it but know there are other options should your dog need more. And you don't have to stay with 1 trainer. There are also a tonne of online training courses now with some great trainers who truly love dogs and want them to be safe and happy aswell as the owners.

Dogs aren’t wolves

But also…

That’s not how wolf packs work, at all. There’s no strict hierarchy or toughest at the top, wolf packs are a family. The “dominant” wolves are in charge because they’re the parents - it’s a breeding pair and their various age children, sometimes a couple of other visiting adults or relatives.

So if you wanted to apply wolf pack rules to dogs and humans, it would very much be a parent child type relationship.

OP - a lot of trainers are honestly just bad at it. If you don’t actually need one, look into a sport or activity instead.

Nope, wrong. I agree that you shouldn't treat dogs as kids, but wolves aren't hierarchical. In the wild, they live in family groups - parents and offspring.

Horses, on the other hand, can be pretty hierarchical. Often lead by an alpha mare.

@Louise0808 yes dogs should definitely be able to cope with loud voices and commands.

They are used to loud noises - busy roads, shouted instructions for hoopers from afar, loud children.

I'm not sure I agree with your examples though - loud negative reinforcement isn't going to stop your dog attacking, killing etc. If my dog was chasing another dog, I'd recall and reward the recall.

Sorry I didn't explain that part well. I didnt mean/say shout at a dog to stop attacking. I meant shout a command I.e recall, sit, down, stay. So dogs should be comfortable with a loud noise for nerves and safety.
If your dog reacts or attacks anything I'd hope it wasn't off lead. Solid recalls are rarely solid when prey drive or fight or flight kick in.

No. Screaming at a dog for doing wrong is a terrible bloody idea and 'harshly' reprimanding a dog that is barking is fucking stupid. You divert their attention. You don't scream at them - that just reinforces that it IS something to be scared of/aggressive too.

Aggressive training of dogs always ends one of two ways: 1) The dog becoming a nervous wreck or, 2) the dog becoming an aggressive nightmare and attacking the owner.

What breed is your dog, OP?

Some dogs do require a more 'forceful' handle that others - I grew up with GSDs, Border Collies & Flat Coats. The Flat Coats needed a far 'softer' handler than the GSDs and lots of positive reinforcement. The GSDs needed a 'firmer' hand but not aggression or yelling/screaming at them...and the Collie was somewhere in the middle. Ditto with my current dogs. The Dalmatian needs a firmer hand, the Golden just needs love and the Cocker is somewhere in the middle...

Have they got qualifications?

They sure do. (Although that is a story in itself).

I personally think there is too much ‘positive reinforcement only’ type ownership now, especially since lockdown, there are so many out of control dogs, not necessary nasty, but don’t listen to a word their owners say, and they just excuse the bad behaviour, ‘oh he’s only playing’ etc, because they just don’t have it in them to be the owner that dog needs them to be.

It’s really dog specific IMO, and some dogs just need firm leadership AND positive reinforcement, but the thing I find is once that is trained you don’t need to keep training them, where as positive reinforcement only, seems to be a constant battle of redirection to get them to behave how you want them to.. and they seem to be the most badly behaved in my experience, but I’m sure it works for a lot of dogs.

you need to figure out what your dog needs and responds to, to make him a happy healthy well adjusted dog, that’s what your job is as an owner, not what people tell you is the ‘latest guidelines’.