Unsure about negative dog trainers

[DuckEggy]

I think I know the answer to this and need to trust my own gut, however ...

Situation 1: dog trainer shouted at my dog for doing something

Situation 2: I was advised to harshly reprimand my dog and avoid them seeing an animal they were barking at by obstructing them

Both were professionals with a good reputation locally.

My stance tends to be rarely to tell my dogs off as such, reward for good behaviour and try and avoid or ignore bad behaviour or ask for a more positive one instead.

There are exceptions, because I'm human! - if my pup jumped up and hurt me I'd probably shout out in pain - or if they were about to push past me to get to something dangerous in the food bin, I'd say a harsh 'no'.

Generally though, I don't want to shout at them. If they are being stubborn or bolshy, I will be firm but not loud. They are not lap dogs and come from working heritage.

Am I being too feeble? Out of text book and in real life, is it necessary to raise a voice? Barky dog would have continued to bark whether I shouted at them or not.

there are so many out of control dogs,

I think this is because they are untrained, regardless of the type of training. I agree that there are far too many. Quite a few owners have no clue at all.

Yes I agree I think some owners just don't know how to deal with dogs however they are swamped with dogs Should be off lead dogs should be able to mix with other dogs that's all fine and fair enough but you the owner need to be in charge of the situations and interactions .

there are so many out of control dogs, not necessary nasty, but don’t listen to a word their owners say, and they just excuse the bad behaviour

I don't disagree but why do you assume that's down to positive training rather than no training?

So we on gentle dog parenting now 🤦🏻‍♀️ Christ it's not a kid

A lot of it is personal experience of knowing people with dogs and you can see which people treat their dogs more like children, and how their dogs behave in comparison to others, especially dogs where their owners are firmer with them or correct bad behaviour.

The behaviours that I see a lot in those dogs are complete lack of recall, frequent barking and whining, often at the owners to get attention, reactive/obnoxious behaviour with other dogs, and the main one is they just don't listen to instruction from their owners, their owners normally follow them round calling their name in an exasperated tone and they genuinely think they have no control.. the dog is just 'strong willed' 'stubborn' 'friendly' .. insert your own excuse here.

The ones I see out in the wild do the same thing, they half heartedly call their dog (or not at all) from half way across a field, or completely ignore bad behaviour and wait for their dog to return to them of their own accord.

'positive reinforcement only' training is focused too much (IMO) on rewarding the good and ignoring the bad.. I see an awful lot of ignoring the (shockingly) bad, but not so much rewarding the good.. maybe you're right and they just aren't doing the positive training properly, although they think by ignoring the bad they are doing it correctly, either way it is completely ineffective.

If dog doesn't listen, that's not due to positive reinforcement training. More likely to be due to inconsistent training, not progressing training into more complex environments, or not marking and rewarding at the right point.

No, you've completely misunderstood the thread and concepts of conditioning

Go join a dog club for doggy training class! It can be frownd upon on here, but honestly you & doggy will learn so much more than basic commands. KC good citizen dog scheme is a good start.

As to your training scenarios:

🤔 a firm sharp No can work wonders ...

In Situation 2: what have you tried before you/ your trainer reached that point?
There are 1001 things I would try first.

We've been to several classes run by different force free trainers (IMDT trained) - puppy classes and gundog classes. None of them have advocated 'ignoring the bad'. In fact, there was a lot of emphasis on preventing rehearsing unwanted behaviours.

I suspect most badly behaved dogs have had no training at all, or a 6 week puppy class and nothing further. I'm not sure why some people decide that they've been trained positive only other than it suits their own agenda.

My terrier has been trained purely by rewards, using management when necessary and at 18 months is fully under control both on and offlead. I prefer to train check ins rather than recall as then the dog WANTS to stay close and keep an eye on what you are doing but I can recall her if necessary. She's one of many in her training classes who have only known reward based and are doing very well. We manipulated her environment at all times so she was forced to make the 'right' choices and be rewarded for them, therefore the right choices are all she has ever known.

Management is powerful.

I think most OOC dogs have actually had little training rather than postive tbh. Or the 6 week puppy course and they think their dog is trained. Training is life long. My last dog was still attending classes at 14 (she died at 17).

Lots of lauded dog trainers treat dogs in ways that most pet dog owners would find unacceptable. It seems to be even worse with horses.

One of the most useful things we taught was a positive interruptor. Say name get snack. Repeat until the quietest mention of their name sends them flying to you for a snack.

Used in many situations especially when you are beginning to relax the management with a puppy.

This 👆

By ignoring the bad, I meant not rewarding the bad with attention.

So, dog tries to steal food - either put food where dog can't reach it or teach and reward 'leave it' command - rather than just shouting at the dog when it steals food. I don't mean reward every single time- just initially then irregularly.

That's similar to what I was doing when trainer told me to do something more aversive.

Yes Mark Todd

I was responding to sandyhappypeople who believes the badly trained dogs she's seen out and about are positive trained as their owners are ignoring the bad.

We manipulated her environment at all times so she was forced to make the 'right' choices and be rewarded for them, therefore the right choices are all she has ever known

This only works until you get into a situation that you can't manage, control or manipulate.

One of the most useful things we taught was a positive interruptor. Say name get snack. Repeat until the quietest mention of their name sends them flying to you for a snack

What do you do if you dog is indifferent to snacks?

I'm not against positive reenforcement it does work for the majority of dogs and tasks they have to perform.

But just keep in mind, there is always that one situation where it fails.

I've not yet found a situation where I've not been able to manipulate in over 20 years of dogs and training including a rescue who was FA to people. In the odd occasion then in all likelihood a single lapse is not going to create a long term habit! There is always a way to mitigate IME.

Positive does not mean permissive!

No snacks no problem. I've taught lots of dogs who don't do food. Toys, praise, fuss - I've known them all. There will be SOMETHING your dog finds highly reinforcing. Chicken wing in a sports sock anyone?

Punishment can absolutely fail too. I have seen it happen.

If you mean David Mech, he still 100% believes that wolves practice dominance with each other. He dislikes the term 'alpha' because it implies that the animal fought for the top spot, which is rarely the case (though wolves in captivity will do so routinely and wolves in the wild will sometimes).

What impact this should have on how a dog is trained is another matter. Personally I'm not in favour of shouting at the dog in those circumstances and I'd find someone with a more subtle approach.

@sandyhappypeople if a dog isn't listening then that's not down to positive training. It's a bit weird to assume that tbh.

What do you do if you dog is indifferent to snacks?

Squeaky ball
Rabbit fur tug
Flirt pole
Higher value treats
Praise
Make yourself super exciting
Lots of fuss

There are so many ways to use positive training that don't involve food.

Ah yes but he goes with dominance in a parental role and with those weaker actually being supported within the pack to succeed and strengthen.

But that's taking things off topic! Sorry OP.

Praise and treats!!

Interesting - do you have a source?

Ignore this OP. Get another trainer asap. Make sure that they are kind and understand dogs.