Unsure about negative dog trainers

[DuckEggy]

I think I know the answer to this and need to trust my own gut, however ...

Situation 1: dog trainer shouted at my dog for doing something

Situation 2: I was advised to harshly reprimand my dog and avoid them seeing an animal they were barking at by obstructing them

Both were professionals with a good reputation locally.

My stance tends to be rarely to tell my dogs off as such, reward for good behaviour and try and avoid or ignore bad behaviour or ask for a more positive one instead.

There are exceptions, because I'm human! - if my pup jumped up and hurt me I'd probably shout out in pain - or if they were about to push past me to get to something dangerous in the food bin, I'd say a harsh 'no'.

Generally though, I don't want to shout at them. If they are being stubborn or bolshy, I will be firm but not loud. They are not lap dogs and come from working heritage.

Am I being too feeble? Out of text book and in real life, is it necessary to raise a voice? Barky dog would have continued to bark whether I shouted at them or not.

100% agree.

I'm not entirely convinced that completely trying to ignore the bad behaviour is going to work with some dogs. Surely some bad behaviour is too severe, or dangerous to the dog or other dogs or people, to ignore and some dog need guidance in a calm manner and firm quiet voice.

Agree though that dogs need to be able to tolerate a certain level of loud noises but they should never be expect to tolerate being shouted at.

My dog was always happy to be called loudly from a long distance during recall practice - she's an old lady now so is usually near me now when off lead - but dogs will know the difference between a voice raised in calling or play and an angry, scary voice raised as punishment and to install fear, something no one should, or needs to use in training.

🤣

I'll give my lovely stubborn Tibetan your list next time he asks: What is in it for me? I tell him that he can pick any one of the items or a combination for his future training sessions.
He isn't bothered beyond what he thinks is a reasonable request!
On the plus side, he'll just do random stuff on his own accord... after watching / studying other dogs in during training class. It's great to watch!

Honestly, he's very well behaved, but exclusively positive reenforcement with lovely trats does not cut it for him neither would harsh treatment * ... my little cookerpoo on the other hand, will do anything as long as I promise to throw a ball to fetch.

• I think he would shut down

You don't need to ignore it. You can prevent it happening, or redirect, or give them an incompatible behaviour.

Ignoring leads to frustration and that just makes things worse.

My dog gets so excited when we get to our training venue she barks. I don't want to dampen this enthusiasm - I LOVE that she's having a great time and wants to tell everyone. So I get her out as quick as I can then we play a game with sniffing for treats on the ground. Another person in the class plays hide and seek with a toy. If I ignored her she would get so wound up she'd probably bite me (she has done this before I learnt her triggers and how to deal with them). Ignoring can confuse a dog into stopping temporarily but doesn't actually tell them what you want them to do.

When I come in she gets so excited to see me (or my husband) we just drop to the floor and give her loads of fuss whilst she has all her feet on the floor. I can't stop her getting excited and nor would I want to. Over time she has stayed on the floor and waited for me to come down to her as she has learnt by her actions of staying down she gets fuss and play. She will often now dash off to bring me a toy to play with.

That is management as much as crates and gates.

PS - I have a VERY worky, very intelligent and very willful (if you want to humanise it) terrier. I do know how to motivate independent breeds. The more fun they have the more they want to have. She has been training in agility for over a year. We're still a year off competing as I have spent most of my time building value in working with me and now building value in doing things. We're only just starting the sexy stuff. People with more handler focused breeds are way ahead but I don't care. The value to your dog in working with you needs to be built slowly, carefully and with care. There will be a way to do that you just need the skills and thought to work out what (or a good trainer - I had help with mine when I started as she was way more independent and driven than my last dog even though she is a similar breed type).

There will be a way to motivate your dog if treats don't work.

The main issue in dog training is that you need to be able to get your dogs attention when he's in a highly aroused state.

It's really easy if you train from puppy or have a biddable breed, dogs that are focused on food or toys.

Not so easy with more stubborn or adult dogs, dogs that have been neglected or even mistreated. Then you really have to do your homework to A* standard.

What breed? What are the key traits? If you are able to work with the traits rather then suppress them then you are off to a good start. I think it's important to home in on those traits, focusing training and what you want to achieve by letting the dog do it's natural thing.

From there, you can move to more unnatural behaviours as long as you mix it up with the instinctive behaviours.

@Newpeep. Exactly. You're not ignoring the behaviour you're managing it.

Ignoring is not the same as managing.

I think a lot of dogs go untrained now because people are doing just that, they're ignoring certain behaviour in the hope that it will somehow go away on its own.

I have a similar thing with my dog barking.

My dog is fed breakfast around 5am.

After she's eaten she goes into the garden for a wee.

Normally, when she wees she runs around the garden and barks a few times, not sure why.

Obviously I don't want her to bark at that time of the day so I've managed the behaviour, by simply telling her to be quiet and calm, which has always worked for her, well it has since she's got a bit older.

At any other time of the day she will still bark a bit before weeing, at 5am she doesn't bark.

It's just a case of finding out what works for the dog and implementing it, but it can't just be ignore in the hope it will stop as some people seem to think.

1. Dogs are not wolves. There are a ton of differing social behaviours between the two species so it would be a massive jump to assume dogs had the same social hierarchy wolves do
2. Wolf social hierarchy is not a strict linear ranking. As with many social structures, there is a fluidity to it that makes it very hard for humans to really be able to accurately measure it.
3. Dominance (when used as a term by behaviourists) is not a description of an individual - ie. few use it to describe a 'dominant wolf' it is a description of behaviour ('it was a dominant stance') and the difference is key. All animals use dominant behaviour in some circumstances, dogs and wolves also. Humans use it towards dogs all the time - it is primarily the control of resources and everytime I give the dog just enough breakfast, vs as much as he'd like, I might be described as displaying dominant behaviour. That doesn't make me the boss. It doesn't make me a dominant individual and it does not reflect the more general ranking of us an individuals. It is a side effect of me having opposable thumbs and so being part of a species that can make, can and distribute the food and being an individual that can reach, open and serve up the food
4. I am not a dog. I am not a wolf. There is not dog or wolf that will think I am so it would be a bit silly for me to try and place myself in their social ranking under the asusmption they see me as such. As species, we are both cleverer than that.

In terms of the two examples you give...

Situation 1: dog trainer shouted at my dog for doing something

To a degree this is personal training choice and depends on where you moral stance is (for avoidance of doubt, I am very much in the 'don't shout' camp). But there is also some strong evidence of reinforcement training being more effective. e.g. a US Guide Dog training program that saw significant gains in pass rate when they moved from balanced training to reinforcement only.

Plus, it never explains how so many other animals can be trained without punishment of any kind. No one ever tried to smack a bee but they have been trained to perform complex behaviours. No one bothers shouting at a goldfish but they've been trained to play a form of football. I don't suppsoe anyone ever yanked a choke chain on a rat, but they are out there detecting and signalling the presence of land mines.

Situation 2: I was advised to harshly reprimand my dog and avoid them seeing an animal they were barking at by obstructing them

This is the worse example, to me. One of the first 'rules' in deciding how to train out a specific behaviour in a dog is to ask yourself if that behaviour is being driven by a negative emotion (eg fear). If it is, you are duty bound to address the emotion first. It's a fairly shit trainer that stops a dog barking out of fear but never bothers addressing the fear itself. A silent, fearful dog is not preferable to a barking, fearful dog. Both are upset dogs and we need to help the dog feel better first. The chances are, if we do that, the behaviour stops anyway - but if it doesn't, THEN you can address it through operant conditioning ('training').

I teach an ex puppy farm dog that works for a scrap of fabric. We think it's because it's all she had when she was in the barn. She doesn't tug or chase it, just wants to lie on it. So that is her reward and motivation.

I have had two dogs as an adult (and taught many more). An adult rescue, of an independent breed cross and a pup from good working terrier lines. Neither of them have had anything other than reward based training. Both of them have had good enough life skills that I can get their attention when aroused if I have needed to. Not much more arousing than an agility competition on a working farm ;) Fencing at shows is a VERY new thing and didn't exist 10 years ago when I competed my last dog. Just a ring rope between her and a field of sheep/horses/chickens.

Sure, try this one to start, Alpha Status, Dominance, and Division of Labor in Wolf Packs. https://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1343&context=usgsnpwrc

I am going to have to name change as my wolf obsession is very outing 😂

@Ylvamoon I mean, those were just a handful of examples.

I've worked with all kinds of breeds from wolfdogs to terriers and have never met one I couldn't motivate with something. Yes, some are easier than others, but that's a given - if you want a dog who is easy to train, then I would maybe argue that a Tibetan isn't the best choice, lol.

You do have to use your imagination with some of them, but I've genuinely never known a dog who can't, eventually, be motivated by some kind of positive reward/motivation.

Oh my! @Newpeep that dog with its fabric😍

You are supposed to manage the environment.

Say recall, don't let them off lead so they can not return when you recall them, put them on a long line whilst you teach recall and generalize it.

Don't leave food out for them to counter surf, put it away until they learn to chill on their bed\mat\whatever in the kitchen.

Yes, not everything can be managed but you can make a pretty good go at it.

If you let dogs practice unwanted behavior they get really good at it. Think that's from Susan Garrett.

Ah, sorry:-)

Yes, I don't think I phrased it well when I said 'ignore bad behaviour' - I meant not five attention to it. So I'd ignore my dog failing to recall by having big fuss/reward when it did eventually recall. I'd ignore barking for attention (at least, in theory ).

Thank you, this is helpful.

She was barking as she was excited. Nothing was going to make the situation not exciting. I gave her little jobs to do and she didn't bark. I also notice that when she makes a 'mistake' she responds better when I reward the next tiny 'good' thing she does as she seems to gain confidence. Using the aggressive tone approach would probably stress both of us out.

You need a new trainer tbh. Managing excitement in a dog training class is bread and butter stuff. It doesn't need any form of punishment or harsh treatment.

“I gave her little jobs to do”

This, exactly. Standing in front of whatever my dog thinks is Scary/Exciting just doesn’t work. Yanking a slip lead, pulling her ear, shouting at her etc would just ramp up the reactivity ladder, but a set ‘thing’ to do that is rehearsed in low arousal situations works like a dream.

I do. I'm so disappointed because I wanted to like this class.

I actually said it's the badly trained dogs that I know where the owners use positive reinforcement and nothing else.. I can only assume about the dogs out and about, but the owners display the same sort of wishy washy 'no don't do that rover, rover, good boy, rover, rover, rover, good boy, rover'.. they normally give up at that point.

I think the 'positive reinforcement only' can work, but you have to be extremely on the ball with it, and most dog owners as a whole can't be arsed with that.. they half arse it by rewarding and positively praising when they feel like it (sometimes at the wrong times), but most forget to be consistent with it and it ends up with dogs who are very hit and miss with training, they have rubbish recall, they are obnoxious to other dogs and don't listen to what their owners say, especially when there is something more interesting happening around them.

IMO, you need to work out what your dog responds to and work with that, 'positive reinforcement only' will only do so much for certain dogs.. I think you need to actively correct rather than ignore bad behaviour, as well as reward the good.

Ta.
I thought it was Schenkel who first came out with the alpha wolf idea, from observing capture wolves.

If you have a wolf obsession, have you found the Yellowstone National Park wolf project annual reports?
https://www.nps.gov/yell/learn/nature/wolf-reports.htm

Oh yes I have 😁

I think the 'positive reinforcement only' can work, but you have to be extremely on the ball with it, and most dog owners as a whole can't be arsed with that.

But that's not a positive training problem, it's a lazy owner problem.

Balanced and/or aversive training only works if the owners are on the ball too.

I don't think we are talking about the same thing - so much is about timing (I'm no dog trainer tho') - whether it's negative or positive response. What you're describing is someone randomly saying 'good boy Rover'.