Any owners to share pros and cons of fox red Lab and King Charles spaniel?

[Tully1557]

Hi, I would really appreciate any lived experience of these dogs. I’ve known a CKC and he was the sweetest dog. However, the small skull/health issues are a worry. I've known a few gorgeous labs who were utterly mental in the first three years of life - chewing the entire kitchen kind of mental. But I’ve also known of some who were relatively calm and obviously easy to train.

We’re a family of four with children aged 6 and 4. The children are used to dogs. There would always be someone home with the dog apart from the odd trip out on a weekend. We have a garden and access to lots of walks. This isn’t something we’re planning on doing for maybe another year, so I’ve got plenty of time for research and thinking.

If anyone can share the good, the bad and the ugly it would be great!

I’ve specified fox red lab because these are the ones I’ve seen on the smaller side and seemingly calmer. Happy to be told there’s no such thing as a calm(er) lab

Fox red can be any size or any temperament. Colour is irrelevant

I have had Cavaliers for over 20 years. They are amazing little dogs BUT they can come with lots of health problems and sometimes will die around the 9 year old mark because of this. Good insurance is a must.

With labs, it's not colour so much that you have to think of as the lines: show/pet, or working?

Workers are very likely to be more energetic and more demanding and thus harder work - and nothing like a CKCS.

They are both at very different ends of the spectrum dog wise! Fox red labs tend to come from working lines and would be the least calm out of the lot. They require a lot of training and mental stimulation, totally different personality to pet bred.

I am not an expert or an owner of a Fox Red Labrador but I have been interested in animal welfare and rescue for all of my adult life. It is my understanding that the Fox Red Lab has become fashionable and has therefore attracted the attention of greedy, unethical breeders & once it has becomes easy to sell something on the basis of colour, in the main all the important things that should be considered when breeding have flown out of the window. You will need to do your research very carefully, as of course, with with all breeds.

The health problems of the Cavalier King Charles Spaniel have been very well documented and I am sure that @GalactiCat can offer the soundest advice.

Any other non dog people see this in Active and think it would be another election thread at first glance?

We have a one year old fox red Labrador from working stock. He’s lovely but needs lots of exercise and was a nightmare on his lead, with pulling which we’ve mostly sorted with lots of training - until he sees a squirrel! We do working dog specific training which has been excellent. He’s super intelligent and gets things quickly.

He’s very good company and loves a morning cuddle. He’s a bit of a thief, particularly liking bras, spectacles and remote controls.

Saw @indianrunnerduck message. I think it’s important to research your breeder whichever dog you decide to get. We did and travelled some distance to get our boy. Our breeder is extremely reputable, nationally and internationally. She does cockers too, dm me if you’d like her info

These are two very different breeds, OP.

I walk 3(ish) hours a day with my dogs and wouldn't get a lab because I don't think I could give it what it needs to live it's best life (and one it deserves). Ditto I wouldn't touch a King Charles Spaniel because, quite frankly, they don't need enough exercise.

Given how different they are, I'm not sure how much consideration you've put into this? I don't want to sound rude, but it's like comparing a Malinois and a Chinese Crested...

As my name implies I’m a vet (for many years). Fox red labs didn’t exist 40 years ago so they have been developed by adding in another type to get the colour. In my experience, they have become very fashionable and so so many of them are anxious barky and sometimes downright aggressive. This is rare in other colours ( and if they are like this we often discover a red parent). So I’d go cavalier from a breeder who health tests or an another lab colour. Again look for hip eye and elbow testing. One of my colleagues has. Ckcs and he is lovely.

CKCS are generally a docile easy going breed well suited to new owners. But as a breed generally, health issues are absolutely awful
As a trainer, I’ve met many, many labs and the red fox ones are now increasingly popular. As others have said, they are generally of working lines and I have not met one yet which is not OFF ITS HEAD as a youngster, needing a great amount of input and a job to do. Those that haven’t received this input have become problematic,unhappy dogs and often suffering from behaviour issues long term
Perhaps you could outline what traits you are looking for. Both these breeds are great but definitely not for the same family, they are polar opposites!

Some really helpful comments, thank you.

It may seem a random selection, but the main priority is a confident dog, unlikely to suffer with stranger nervousness or a breed predisposed to dog aggression. Becoming stressed on dog walks for fear of meeting another dog would be a problem. Likewise, not being able to have guests to the house would be a problem. Chewing, lead pulling, exercise requirements etc are all part of anticipated training and dog ownership so not as big a consideration. Your input about fox reds is very useful @Secretvet, as this is completely what we need to avoid.

I would get a lot from training a more intelligent dog, but I think CKC might suit the family more.

I have a show lab, he was a nutcase when he was young. He’ll still have a go now, but he’s 13 so physically can’t manage much.
Always check hip and elbow scores, don’t do much exercise for the first year, get insurance and don’t neuter for 2 years.
Love my boy but my god he’s the most expensive, hairy thing we’ve ever had! £400 a month ish the last two years. Not to mention thousands on operations, caused by him being a nutter.
I had trainers and behaviourists- didn’t work! One on his own!

A work colleague has spaniels and they’re all riddled with heart issues and also need meds.

I regularly have my DF fox red lab to stay when she's away. TBH, I wouldn't get one! The dog is a nice size but a ball on nerves and barky. It also pulls like a train on the lead. I'd go for a well -bred CKCS.

We foster guide dogs, so have a succession of retrievers, labs and their crosses stay with us for a while between the ages of 1 and 2. Both internal breeding stock and externally bred.

A few things we have noticed regarding the labs we've had:
Externally bred labs are always more high energy than guide dog stock (unsurprisingly)
They're all very different, but generally the calmer ones tend to be "stockier" builds
The fox red we currently have is the most high energy, highly strung, anxious dog we've ever had. But also the most intelligent. He is however so lean he is often mistaken for a visla and is of gun dog breeding

Guide dogs do find external homes for their rejects if that is of interest. They're usually 12-18 months old and have certain temperments of physical characteristics that make them unsuitable for guiding. Many make great pets though

Be aware that King Charles Spaniels and Cavalier King Charles Spaniels are two separate breeds. Both in general have lovely natures, don't require loads of exercise, but come with a host of painful health problems from having a skull that is too small for their brain and flat faces.

As mentioned, the fox red is just the colour choice of the moment. If you go for a lab, you need a show line - a working line will send you barmy. They will be very bitey as pups and this needs to be worked on calmly, firmly and gently to prevent having a mouthy rude adult.

It doesn't sound like you are very experienced when it comes to dogs, which is fine, we all start somewhere. I'd recommend having a read up on cavapoos - they are lovely little things that, if you can cope with the grooming, could be a good fit for you.

I have a black lab, partly because everyone says labs are good family pets. What they don’t say is how hard puppyhood is and relentless it can be. Puppies are cute for a reason - so you forgive them! He’s coming up for two now, and is calming down.

Labs are intelligent breeds, so need that mental stimulus.

I wouldn’t recommend a cross breed to a new owner.

you don’t know what breed traits you’ll get. You could get all the bad things and non of the good.

as pp pointed out, they’re popular. Add that to them being a cross breed and they’re nearly always puppy farmed, with no health tests on the parents, and no regulation around number of litters. It’s almost impossible to find a health tested, ethically bred cross breed, and if you do there’ll be a waiting list of several years.

Also, there’s two types of labs, English and American. English (show) tend to be stockier, larger and calmer whilst American (working) tend to be slighter and more energetic. However, these are very broad generalisations.

The family I nanny for have a fox red lab. He's a pain. Steals food, chews things, jumps up at the door to let himself out, sends the little one flying without a thought and drives me bonkers following me everywhere!! I think if he had a lot more training and a bit more enriching exercise he'd be more bearable. Having said that, he's incredible tolerant of the little one and always nice to other people, after an initial woof!

Genetically fox red labs are just dark yellow labs - the whole fox red thing label is a trend, nothing more. But lovely like all labs are.

had a KC years ago, was a bit messed up and nervy, some heart probs. Not sure it is representative of the breed, I’m sure some lovely ones!

Is there not an English working strain? I know people who have them who never mention America...

@Uncooperativefingers I have heard of this, but always assumed there’d be a 10-year waiting list. Do you know where to look to find out more?

I guess the reason I’ve heard of friends with calm red labs is because they’re on trend, whereas my memory of 20 years ago is of golden labs and them being quite mental and neurotic. But I suppose they were on trend then too, with Andrex marketing!

@toomanytonotice agree with all of this and won’t go near a cross breed in a million years. I want to know a clear line of temperament and health issues. And poodles don’t fit the criteria of confidence in my mind at all.

We do have experience with dogs and had one who passed away 5 years ago. He was a mixed breed and had dog aggression and nervousness. I rushed into buying him because I was young and naive, he was gorgeous, and I loved the individual breeds that he was mixed with. In reality he got the worst temperaments from the breeds. He was a great dog and I trained him to a high standard with scent work. But we lost our confidence and it’s taken a while to get to this point of considering another dog.

You've said it yourself. People dedicated to their particular crossbreed do exist (which is how all current KC breeds start), they just have long waiting lists. The OP isn't looking for now so it makes sense to find a good breeder for whatever breed/crossbreed suits them best and get on a waiting list.