Any owners to share pros and cons of fox red Lab and King Charles spaniel?

[Tully1557]

Hi, I would really appreciate any lived experience of these dogs. I’ve known a CKC and he was the sweetest dog. However, the small skull/health issues are a worry. I've known a few gorgeous labs who were utterly mental in the first three years of life - chewing the entire kitchen kind of mental. But I’ve also known of some who were relatively calm and obviously easy to train.

We’re a family of four with children aged 6 and 4. The children are used to dogs. There would always be someone home with the dog apart from the odd trip out on a weekend. We have a garden and access to lots of walks. This isn’t something we’re planning on doing for maybe another year, so I’ve got plenty of time for research and thinking.

If anyone can share the good, the bad and the ugly it would be great!

I have a fox red lab, they are just darker colour yellow labs and all are working line. This is why they are more crazy than a show lab. My dog is well bred from a reputable breeder. Out of the fox reds I know from the park (local park seems to have lots of goldens and labs) mine is the most chilled which is ridiculous as she is a bit crazy. How we survived the puppy stage is beyond me! She normally gets 2 walks a daily, both from 1-2 hours, enrichment at home, some training and lots of snoozing. She is perfect with our kids but we got her when our youngest was 8, I wouldn't have coped with toddlers plus a crazy bitey puppy. She needs lots of work, we haven't found her off button and she is very definitely 'my dog'. She is a stealer of everything and we have lost many TV controllers. She is barky and had separation anxiety as a pup but we worked and worked on it and now can be left for 4 hours without her being stressed- we have a camera so can see what she does.
Those 2 breeds of dog are very very different so think what would be right for you. Working labs are harder work than show labs no matter what their colour.

If you get a CKCS just prepare yourself that he almost certainly will get heart disease, statistically by age 6 and statistically will not live past around 9/10 years old. Make sure he is well
insured and seek input from a specialist cardiologist as early as possible.
If you’re unlucky he will also have syringomyelia as well which is a really awful disease.

Fox red labs are absolutely wild, prone to cancer and arthritis like most labs

I think you can ignore references to American Labs. There are very few in this country compared with English Labs. They come roughly in three strains, show, working and trials, but these are interbred . Trials dogs are not suitable for novice homes and can lack stamina. My Lab is a quarter show and three quarters working, so looks much less 'snipey' than many straight working Labs, which can resemble greyhound crosses. I've had Labs for nearly four decades and they are the best. You do need to train them though. None of mine have been destructive nor been anxious.

Mine lived happily till 16, 14, 16 and currently 2! Arthritis in their early teens but I have that now I am older. No cancers.

Sure, as far as I understand it, you put an application in and they see if there is a doggy match. Applications aren't done on a first come first serve basis, it's more that they look to see if you and your lifestyle suit any of their dogs iyswim.

My parents got a call for theirs within 2 weeks of applying, but that was luck as their boy had literally been rejected the week they applied. He had shoulder issues so couldn't carry the harness for extended periods, but he is perfectly fine as a pet.

It might be a long shot, but can't hurt to give it a go!

I’ve got two CKCS (rescues) lovely, adaptable dogs, one of them is very clever and loves learning, and has a repetoir of tricks to rival any working breed, one is dim as ditchwater…
Happy with 2x20 minutes or will join us for 3 hours walks. SO CALM in the house. Gentle and friendly.
All of this despite a really poor start to life where they were badly neglected.

If you really do your research. Speak to a breed club and be prepared to wait for a healthy puppy from a responsible breeder they are fabulous family dogs

We have a 3 year old working black lab. She's been a dream since the first day. So easy to train.

DH is an agronomist so she walks 10-12 miles a day in Spring/Summer. She's great with the farm dogs she meets.

She does eat everything! 😂 DH spotted her at the end rig of a field and thought she had picked up a balloon...it was a frog... 🤢

I'm a CKCS owner, they are the best dogs but you need to buy from a breeder that health tests.

My last one lived until 12, didn't need to start heart medication until 10 and was only on a low dose for the first 18 months. If it wasn't for her heart I felt like I'd have easily had her another 3-5 years because she was still as sprightly as a 2yr old when she wasn't snoozing. She didn't have any joint, eye or ear problems or anything.

I have another now, she's an absolute dream. Super smart, house trained by 10 wks, spends 99% of her walks off lead because she knows to come and walk close to me if we encounter people/bikes/prams/mobility scooters or anything else we might see.

Be warned thought they are the ultimate lap dogs and have to have some part of their body touching you at all times if you are sat down. mine is absolutely fine at home alone (I have cameras) but when I'm home she likes to be with me at all times whether it's sitting watching me cook, sleeping on my knee or trying to get me to play. They are absolutely obsessed with and devoted to their owners.

American labs are just what Americans call working labs, for some reason they've decided working lines are American and show lines are English but they're not terms used in this country and some lab traditionalists will get quite snippy if you use these terms as all labradors originated in the UK

Fox red labs didn’t exist 40 years ago so they have been developed by adding in another type to get the colour.

This isn't the case, fox red are just a variety of yellow, selected by breeding yellows with dark coats. They're not like so called silver/charcoal labs

This has been so useful. A lab is off the table! We have now requested an application form for the guide dog reject list. I guess that’s one way of finding a dog whose personality is known.

Now the search will be for ethical breeders of CKC. Happy to hear other breed suggestions.

Sounds like a golden retriever would suit you, OP, if you can cope with the hair.

You mentioned intelligence - seriously, it’s overrated.

Moat dogs can be trained to a reasonable standard if you’ve got something they value to use as a reward.

But unless you really love training, and want to compete, you’re better off with an averagely intelligent breed. The very clever ones will learn the bad stuff just as quickly as the good stuff and probably be one step ahead of you!

Cavaliers are clever enough to be trainable, but also more importantly tend to be biddable. They were bred as companions not for
work so will tend to
be easier
to live with.

As someone else said, do your research and find a well bred one and make sure you insure it.

Fully agree with the intelligence point above. Our golden retriever is pretty dumb really but just clever enough to train. She knows and follows a lot of commands but she doesn't have the brain power to wonder why she's following these commands. She's perfect.

I wouldn’t rule out labs but I’d get a black one from show lines. The fox red are in fact just dark yellow (the poster suggesting another breed has been bred in is incorrect) but the popularity means that disreputable breeders have latched on to them and prioritise colour over form. Don’t get me started on “silver” labs.

Chocolate labs are also more temperamental (there’s a reason there are hardly any chocolate guide dogs!) but a black one from a decent breeder is a safe bet. Use Champdogs and don’t go near a breeder who doesn’t hip and elbow score.

I’d also consider a golden retriever, with the same expectations of the breeder.

Alternatively, can I recommend border terriers? Fab little dogs and will walk as long as you want them to. Great personalities and a generally healthy breed.

Yep intelligence is overrated,

they either spend their spare brain power thinking up trouble, or they start thinking about why they should do something, and what’s in it for them. Some also start training you once they realise they can get what they want.

if you’re looking at other breeds, also consider cairns. Amazing dogs, and desperately underrated/unpopular at the minute, which means finding a good breeder should be easier as they aren’t moneymakers.

We have a CKCS, now 13. We got her from a rescue at age 4. We’ve been lucky that she didn’t develop a heart murmur until later in life and she’s not yet needed medication for it. The serious health issues in the breed (even when well bred) would worry me if buying a puppy - I would do A LOT of research. Insurance premiums are high too.
She’s fairly bright and VERY food motivated so was easy to train but also easily distracted eg by squirrels!
She loves walks and could walk for 3-4 hours happily when younger (but content with 30 mins twice a day). Very “spanielly” on walks - sprinting around, following her nose, diving through undergrowth rolling in fox poo!
Happy to mostly sleep when home and fine being left for 4-5 hours. Not a lap dog but affectionate.
Can be nervous/barky with strange dogs or people - but she was a rescue.
Can be demanding - will yap and stamp feet at you! 😆
Not sure how typical she is of the breed - a lot of the CKCS we meet out on walks seem more like lap dogs!

All the young labs that come to my work are nuts! There's an older (maybe 4/5yrs) red one paired with a spaniel.....together, chaos but good fun.I couldn't cope with either 24/7. The older ones (labs of all colours) are more manageable.....almost like they turn into adults till much later.

Temprements come from the blood line in most cases, especially from working dog sbreeders. However, the one breed I've known to be the most calm/placid throughout, albeit can be large, are Ridgebacks.

Size of lab is really very variable. My chocolate lab is ¾ show, ¼ working. Her Dad is huge (won his class of Crufts in 2022 & 2023) and Mum is very petite. At 9 months our pup is about 20kg. She's tiny for a lab!

Temperament wise, she's pretty calm these days. Very trainable. Has never chewed anything that wasn't hers. Doesn't bark too much. We're lucky. Our only issue is that she loves to greet people, so we're working on neutrality.

We have put in a ton of training. Puppy classes, online dog training programmes. She's training to be an assistance dog so she has to be well trained. But she genuinely loves learning and picks up most things within a few minutes.

I know someone with a fox red lab and he’s quite large and completely gorgeous just likes to cuddle . Our vet also has a fox red . Both of these people have young children .

I have two yellow labs. They are wonderful dogs! One of mine is bonkers but she is a rescue and so we weren't able to do the early training etc with her, she can be full on but is extremely sweet and has the most beautiful nature. Our other is just 3, we had her since a pup. She's always been really
Straightforward to train, toilet train, we can take her anywhere and always get comments on how lovely and calm she is.
Can't comment on the King Charles as don't know the breed but would 100% recommend a lab from a decent breeder.

If you decide on a Labrador, go for a black or yellow Lab - there is a reason you never (or very rarely) see chocolates or red at field trials or serious working homes.
We’ve had numerous black Labs and they are the most biddable easy going dogs. You couldn’t get a better family dog in my opinion. But they are working dogs, you need to exercise brain as well as legs!

I’ve owned Cavaliers for over 20 years and bred 4 litters. I chose Cavaliers as a family dog with absolutely no aggression and easy to train. They’re incredibly willing to please but need a high level of human company.

The various Cavalier clubs have promoted health testing for some years now. It’s advised that Cavaliers shouldn’t be bred from until they’re over 3 years and their heart murmur status can be reliably assessed by a specialist vet. There is also scanning available to assess the risk of syringomyelia. Your local breed club will be able to tell you which breeders have undertaken testing for their dogs. As always, good breeders will give you proof of clear testing results while others will fudge this.

For the few litters we had, 5-15 years ago, all our pups were healthy and well and we kept in touch with their new families throughout the dogs’ lives. They are a wonderful breed and have a great deal to give.

You sound lovely owners for a cavalier if you do get one as certainly ours shadows us and wouldn't like to be left alone for long if we didn't work from home . She is incredibly clever, kind, loving and funny and definitely the best dog I've ever known. Ours is 5 and no health problems at all and would gallop outside all day if I had the time but she isn't demanding if we don't go far either .
I feel strongly about good health tested parents too (unless a rescue ) as so helpful to keep the breed healthy and there might still be a good Facebook page on healthy cavaliers I wonder .

Your comments about fox red being a new colour are completely incorrect.

"Fox red" Labradors are just dark yellow Labradors and have always existed - except now they're purposefully being bred for colour whereas in the past they weren't.

It's the so-called "silver" Labradors that are the controversial ones.

Fox red labs are were typically bred working line for the “retriever” aspect in hunting. This means that they are generally more boisterous to deal with as they are bred to work compared to their shoe line counterparts (think show black lab) however with the recent uprise in wanting more ‘exotic’ colours in dogs there’s been plenty that have been bred from backyard breeders with poor temperaments, and poor health with an exceeding amount of nervousness. Like most Labradors you need to look out for predisposed genetic issues in the breed and ensure they come from a breeder who health tests (as for all dogs) and pay specific attention to their elbow and hip scores as have a risk of getting dysplasia, obesity is a big thing for labs as well as arthritis.

Cavaliers are the opposite to labradors again please ensure they come from a breeder who knows the health testing and temperament of their parents as they are predisposed to health issues some of them are ; mitral valve disease is a huge problem in cavies which starts as a heart murmur and develops to heart failure, they can have issues with their breathing as well as the brain malformations some suffer with. They aren’t quite as lively as Labrador’s and typically have a much calmer demeanour, they are “intelligent” enough to train well and don’t require as much physical stimulation as a lab