Any owners to share pros and cons of fox red Lab and King Charles spaniel?

[Tully1557]

Hi, I would really appreciate any lived experience of these dogs. I’ve known a CKC and he was the sweetest dog. However, the small skull/health issues are a worry. I've known a few gorgeous labs who were utterly mental in the first three years of life - chewing the entire kitchen kind of mental. But I’ve also known of some who were relatively calm and obviously easy to train.

We’re a family of four with children aged 6 and 4. The children are used to dogs. There would always be someone home with the dog apart from the odd trip out on a weekend. We have a garden and access to lots of walks. This isn’t something we’re planning on doing for maybe another year, so I’ve got plenty of time for research and thinking.

If anyone can share the good, the bad and the ugly it would be great!

Aren’t they from Labrador?

Their ancestors were (St Johns' Water Dogs) but the modern breed of Labrador was developed in the UK.

Our fox red is mainly dead chilled and lovely. Other dog owners think he's great as he's so friendly with them and their dogs.

Admittedly, he has his mad moments, but he's not yet 2, so not a mature lab yet!

He's also very lean and was only 24kg at 15 months. No idea what he is now, but not much bigger, I'd say. Though he feels heavy when he stands on your bloody foot! 😩

I have an almost 9 yo CKCS who's currently snuggled in beside me on the sofa. Touching wood swiftly, he has no health problems at all so far, but his insurance as he gets older is getting ridiculously expensive.

He's incredibly cunning and stubborn where food is involved and will eat utter crap (literally if you’re not quick enough 🤢) but thankfully he was very easy to train and does listen when you tell him no (although he'll grumble about it if it's food related).

He is the gentlest, most placid and unflappable dog I have ever known. Loves all people, children and other dogs. Hates waterfowl, however, and has tried to take on a swan before now 🤦🏻‍♀️

He does have separation anxiety, and needs people around him. He comes into work with me and sits under the desk, I work in a school and he just loves the attention he gets. As PPs have said, they can go with a 10 minute walk around the block or a 3 hour hike and be equally happy. Hates getting wet.

Oh, and he shouts at the tv if he sees another dog on it, which can get quite wearing...

Apart from that he is the perfect dog and I am now ruined for other breeds.

Update (not an exciting one).

We went to see a litter of CKCS last week. I’d got myself all excited, as the health testing was perfect and thorough, the owner had several generations of the puppies at home and it all sounded legitimate.

The puppies were gorgeous but mum was nervous and couldn’t be stroked. This was a big red flag, as we have children and it needs to have a robust temperament for family life. The breeder was also keeping the pups until 12 weeks so we’d miss out on a good chunk of socialisation window. I didn’t feel any insane pull to these little pups. They were undeniably sweet, but I just don’t think it’s the breed for us.

I’m revisiting this page as now going back to the drawing board and feeling deflated. I don’t think we have the confidence for a lab and all the boisterousness of their puppyhood. What’s the closest to a mini lab but a bit calmer?!

Exactly what I did - skim read, Cons & Lab jumped out at me, assumed politics. Glad it wasn't just me!

Based on your latest update - look at Border terriers. I would go for a bitch as the males can be grumpy with other dogs - as can any dogs poorly socialised though.
I have 2 black labs - best dogs in the world- but I think borders are have lovely personalities.

We have a fox red girl. The downsides are that she needed full on and I mean full on 100% attention and training as a young dog, she learnt very very quickly but we only trained her using totally positive training methods and never a raised voice (apart from a ah-ah occasionally).This was because we knew they could be highly strung and sensitive and didn’t want a reactive dog - as well as the fact I don’t agree with negative punishment training. It was tiring and i felt I couldn’t take my eye off the ball. But now she is 3 1/2 she is amazing and gentle, beautifully behaved and an utter joy. But talking to other owners we come across it seems that a busy home with noise and the constant activity with a young family seems to result in a more hyper dog. My DH is retired and I work from home so as well as a quiet chilled home, we dedicated all our time to her. However she is only brilliant because she has about 2 to 3 hours of walk, swims, nose work daily. But we adore her and she’s amazing even the vet has in the notes that she is a gorgeous well behaved dog!

Good decision. Well done for walking away.

What about a golden retriever? They tend to be marginally calmer than labs as pups (although still mouthy land sharks - pups of any breed are just bloody hard work).

Border terrier or standard poodle. Don’t be put off by the silly haircuts. They’re cracking dogs.

Standard poodles can just have an all-over crop. I don't have vast experience of them but the ones I have known have been really lovely dogs: calm, social, hang around close to the humans and don't fuck off after the rabbits at the bottom of the field. I like big dogs and have chalked them up as a possibility if I ever feel that my current breed type has got too much for me.

Border terriers IME are very variable. We have one little jolly one around here who despite the fact that her owner barely trains her is quite fun to be around, and one who is an utter bitey bastard who went after one of my dogs recently with almost no warning and with his teeth out like something from Alien. I'd check out the temperaments of the parents very carefully if I ever thought of getting one.

I’ve had both those breeds, lovely dogs. The CKC are not a healthy breed, so I wouldn’t go there again. Labradors are wonderful dogs but need a lot of exercise. We currently have a miniature poodle. She’s easily the best dog you could ever wish for.

We've had both. But I wouldn't get a CKC again. She was gorgeous and loving and the children adored her, but she died very suddenly of an undiagnosed tumor (she had had a routine check up the week before and nothing). I had to tell the children when they got home from school. We now have a lab and he's crazy and a bit naughty at times but such fun and I hope will be much healthier

NB ours is a yellow show lab and much calmer than friends' fox reds.

Many years ago I met a yellow lab who was rejected for being ‘too friendly’. He really was a lovely boy 💛

I second those recommending a standard poodle, though they're not particularly easy to find these days as most people want "doodles" instead.

Or if size isn't so much of an issue, toy poodles are also fantastic dogs.

Sorry, that should say mini poodles- I have no experience of the toys! That will teach me to post before my morning coffee

There are very few American working lines in the UK. Most working lines can be traced back to the early 20th century. I’m not sure where American working dogs originated but probably from the early English working lines.

I have a beautiful Black lab who is essentially working but has about a quarter show in her pedigree. As a result she is a lean version of a typical show breed. Beautiful broad head, with medium length nose but square set body without the heaviness. Unfortunately it has bestowed no benefits re her general lab behaviour.
Interestingly she has Bolo spots just behind her pads on all four feet. These are a pigmentation mutation first seen in a lab called Banchory Bolo. I have been able to trace her pedigree back to this dog.
The reason I chose her was because she was related to our previous dog, distantly. Both were not line bred and both have been super healthy dogs with no joint problems. Although a reputable breeder is the preferred source sometimes their breeding lines have higher breeding coefficients. So although all the tests done on joints to eliminate problems. If the coefficient is high in a dog then more recessive genes are expressed.
Unfortunately, as a result of her athleticism and bouncy nature she damaged a disc in her spine a couple of months ago. I didn’t know that it’s a common injury in labs, nothing to do with joint problems though. She is recovering well and has adapted to the restrictive nature of rehabilitation, but cannot understand why we are not doing the long walks.

We had labs and Cairns when I grew up. All were great but our Cairn was the best dog I’ve ever met. She died 15 years ago and I miss her every day. I definitely recommend looking into Cairns further.

Hiya. What about a smooth collie or even a rough collie (same but more floof). Smooths are lovely and calmer than labs. Very trainable. Or what about a Skye terrier. Solid little things and huge fun.

Cairns, poodles and border terriers aren’t the ones. I’ve researched after every suggestion that you helpful lot are adding in! Poodles - it seems you can quite commonly get nervous/neurotic lines. Cairns and border terriers both seem to have a high chance of being yappy and small dog syndrome. I don’t feel a pull to those breeds at all.

My heart is actually with SBT but we live in a cockapoo area and I can only imagine the horror of the neighbourhood and it would impact on people willing to have their children come on play dates! There’s also the issue of dog aggression.

I’m looking for a ‘perfect’ version of my lovely very imperfect dog who passed away. Maybe that’s the issue!

I was returning to this thread to suggest a SBT (although they are very mouthy as pups and adolescents). Also worth considering show Cocker Spaniels. Much calmer than working lines but healthier than the CKCS. Or possibly whippets?

What about a show strain golden retriever?

I’ve also wondered myself about an Eurasier which is apparently the ultimate family dog, but I’ve not met one IRL so this is just from reading about them.

Or if size doesn’t bother you, I’ve got my heart set on a leonberger at some point. You do have to be careful with health as with all giant breeds, but theyre amazing.

Whenever I read these threads I think that surely there is somebody out there developing the ideal pet breed: confident but not aggressive, human and dog social, very biddable and chill, just about zero prey drive but a willingness to do tricks with the owner, about the size of small springer spaniel, not too much fur. Essentially a scaled-down, shorter-coated show-line golden retriever...

@EdithStourton Sounds perfect, although for me it would be a smaller version of a lab, who matures and calms down quickly (lab pups are can be crazy) but still has that cuteness of a pup, and that willingness.

I see border terrier pups are getting a lot if press. I can’t be the only one which they are cute as puppies, but not the adult version.