My untrainable dog...

[Doggoe]

I've given up looking for any advice but can anybody relate just so i know I'm not the only one doing through this!?
I'm not an experienced dog owner so i admit i was naive in my expectations, i had 1 previous dog who trained like a dream, she obviously had her minor faults but overall there were no major issues.
We are a family with 2 DC, previous dog slotted in well, she was sociable, gentle and kids loved her, we could take her to dog friendly events, UK holidays, beach etc. She sadly passed away and enter new dog, a Labrador puppy.
I know no 2 dogs are the same so i wasn't expecting new dog to take the others place but as i've said we are a family and do alot of days out and holidays to include the dog as we don't have a regular dogsitter so we naively assumed all would be well.
Dog is now 18 months old and we have so many issues, many things can be put down to anxiety i think (I'm no expert) but it means our lives have changed so much and i really am starting to resent the dog as we can no longer have days out etc because we cant take her and we cant leave her.
Dog was socialised from the get go and we have also done weeks of training to also try and get on top of these issues but its impossible and she truly is untrainable.
The issues are:

• Anxiety, she is scared of everything, unfamiliar people, dogs, loud noise, the wind, fireworks, going for a walk, the groomers, vets etc.
• Pulling on the lead, we have spent months trying to do loose lead walking after advice from trainer, had to resort to a halti harness, she still pulls on that. And not just a little pulling, she has nearly pulled my arm off multiple times.
• Separation anxiety, she isn't left alone often but she howls and chews her bed up. She has to be crated as we've tried without and she chews the house up.
• Biting, she still bites as much as she did when we got her, nothing we do stops her.
• Energy levels, she has endless energy and is very forceful. Will run full pelt at us and the kids, we all have constant bruises/scratches.
• Cannot keep her off the couch (i have no issue with dogs on the couch) but she does not sit calmly, she races on and off the couch constantly and seriously hurts you when you get stood on. I cannot have visitors other than family who understand because she does the same.
• Recall, she has so much energy she needs off lead walks but her recall is 0 at the moment, there have been odd times its been better but never consistent. Atm she cannot be offlead as she will just literally bolt.
• She's reactive to all dogs, barking and lunging and sometimes people.
• She whines alot, particularly when out for a walk but at home too.
• Night time, she does not settle until about 10-11pm, up and down the sofa, walking round in circles, in our face with obvious energy to burn, she has toys but wont play alone so constantly bringing them to you to throw and by 10pm i just want to relax!
• Jumping up, counter surfing.
• Terrorises the cat.

There are things i just can't remember at the moment but all these issues we have been working on training since having her and nothing has helped, most things have gotten worse! I clearly must be a terrible owner because i don't know any other dog with this many issues!?

To add she is walked daily, as mentioned off-lead is not possible right now, she has many toys/bones to keep her busy, she's only left a few hours 1 day a week as i work from home mostly. We play with her, kids do too so we try burn energy off that way. What else could i do?

@Doggoe - nobody will judge you.
Think about training as a journey for you and your dog each stage is a sightseeing stop.
I have a crazy cockapoo that is doing agility training for over a year... some days she's A* student and other days she runs around like a loon because she gets overexcited! OK it's not the dogs fault, I am not fast enough, but we are not taking about that

My dog was like yours at 18m. but we're more experienced owners, in a different life stage and DH pulls his weight, so it wasn't as hard to manage. Still, I could have written your post word for word on my dog's bad days. Mine is a retriever, but she's absolutely bonkers and can be dangerous (racing around, mouthing, crashing into us) when she loses the plot. If dogs have ADHD then mine has it--I have spent hundreds of hours training her, but if a command isn't used for a few weeks, she will totally forget it, so we have to be mindful about rotating all the fun games and tricks we teach her.

They're not bad dogs, they just need direction, mental stimulation and appropriate relaxation aids.

I would look at the facebook group 'Dog training advice and support'.

I'd also slowly get the children involved in games such as hiding a small treat or a toy and teaching the dog to 'go find', if you hold her firmly whilst they're hiding the item.

Teach the dog 'sit stay', or 'wait', starting with a few seconds and building up to minutes and use it frequently. Throwing a ball--sit, stay, throw the ball, then tell her 'go'. Giving a treat, ditto, playing 'go find', make her sit and stay whilst the toy is hidden, then tell her 'go find'. And so on, in lots and lots of situations. The need to concentrate will help tire her out mentally.

To calm her, licky mats (with supervision) and kongs are great. We use cream cheese, carrot sticks, other raw veg, leftover mashed veg, her kibble and anything else that's not too high fat/salt and doesn't have onions or garlic in.

I agree with a lead (with harness) in the house. You need to control her to help her to be calmer. We have a 'Perfect fit' harness and long (2m?) lead and use the 2 point option on walks when our dog gets too giddy and pulls too much. Perfect fit was one of the few harnesses my Houdini dog couldn't get out of, it's a comfortable harness for the dog and the 2-point option (one D-ring on the back and one on the chest) works really well to give me complete control when needed.

See if you can find the cash for a dog walker once or twice a week, to take the pressure off you a bit. 45 mins 1-2x daily, with lots of mental stimulation, is a lot more than many dogs have and you can only do what you can do.

They're fabulous dogs once they're well-managed, but as a PP said, you'll get on a lot better once you get to understand her triggers better.

Good luck OP.

I think a lot of your issues are actually down to the fact that she is anxious and under confident. In fact, she just sounds like an all round nervous dog. I love my labs, wouldn’t have anything else, however, they are often troped out as the perfect family dog/ first time dog. Whilst most of the time that is true, as a breed they can have a very nervous/ shy streak, are (sometimes) extremely intelligent and stubborn. I think this nervousness is often over looked as they have quite jolly personalities, and therefore not dealt with appropriately.

Basically, OP, you need to speak to a qualified behaviourist/ trainer. Not just someone who runs classes (although they probably will do that as well). Get your vet to recommend someone and have some 1-1 training sessions.
If she is as worried as she sounds then, to be honest, a busy family home may not be the right choice. And if you do decide to go down that route, I’d use a breed specific rescue to rehome her so they understand the pitfalls of the breed and can match appropriately.

Recall: hire a dog park on a regular basis and practice. Buy total recall by Pippa Mattisen. It’s a bloody lifesaver of a book. Short, easy to follow.

General not listening: reward positive behaviour but absolutely correct unwanted behaviour. Find the right trainer. Labs inherently want to please and don’t generally like to be told off (I mean a tut or no). There are so many great resources on Ladies Working Dog Group. Join.

Socialisation: it sounds like she’s picking up on your anxiety with other dogs. You tense up, she’s feels it and responds. I’m the same and have had to completely relax. We don’t want our dog to approach other dogs and so we use distraction techniques. Start by ensuring she knows the look command and use it when you’re out, every single time you walk past another dog, a person, a bike. Have deep pockets full of treats and use those as you walk past. And keep walking in a sure positive way. Do this over and over and over.

Then look for opportunities for her to have some walking with other dogs but on lead and just walking. If a dog approaches yours and she doesn’t like it, you are perfectly allowed to walk in the other direction away from dog and to tell it no, go away etc. she needs to trust that you will take control in situations she doesn’t like. Then she won’t feel she needs to react.

Jumping all over the sofa: stop tell her down, and reward her and make the floor or her bed the place she wants to be. But don’t give mixed messages- either on the sofa or not. Never sometimes, sometimes not. Start to get her to settle in her bed using settle command. There are loads of online resources to help with this.

Shes destroying things because she’s bored. 45 min walk a day isn’t enough. You need to find a way to add another walk in. How you do that, I have no idea when your husband isn’t pulling his weight. Either he sorts kids out and you go, or visa versa but you’ve got to make it a rule that it’s non negotiable.

Once you’ve got your second walk in the day she should settle more but marrow bones are great at keeping them busy in the evening. Assuming she doesn’t guard things like this, she’ll enjoy chewing on it for a long while. But do take it off her so she only has it at certain times of the day.

I do feel for you as it sounds as though you've really tried your best to find a solution.

You need to be honest with yourself as to whether you can realistically implement the changes necessary. As others have said your dog needs a very different approach which is going to take significantly more of your time and money.

Can you do that and sustain it? Will that balance with what your children and you need?

If not then I would seriously consider rehoming. Making the decision to re-home isn't giving up, or letting your dog down. If you do decide to re-home then I would definitely recommend contacting a breed specific rescue.

Which area are you living in, @doggoe? Out trainer does workshops in particular skills and also online stuff both free and chargeable. So, for example, a workshop for excitable/ anxious dogs.
Don't be embarrassed. My dog didn't get the memo about being an easy dog either, and it's a running joke.
She is improving with age but keeps me on my toes literally

Just to add that Dogs Trust have a completely free "Behaviour Support Line" where you can call up and talk to experts, they can also refer you to their Dog School classes and beyond too. Very handy if you're in a panic:

https://www.dogstrust.org.uk/how-we-help/ownership/behaviour-support-line

Honestly I appreciate that so much, unfortunately I am a few hours away I'm in the East of England.

I will reply to some more messages later I do appreciate all of your advice!

God I feel for you! I had a midlife crisis and got to dogs which as puppies where everything to us but we have been training weekly and there tear aways. Had puppy and teenage stage roll on 1 year. Iv never told anyone but I wish I’d never got them! I’m currently having a slight health scare and said to myself if it’s serious they are going and unfortunately that will be my excuse. As bad as it is… I fee for you as ours have turned out lives upside down and not in a good way. Blessed we have 2 to keep company as friends with 1 say just the 1 is more difficult because they just want you.

No worries. I can do a zoom call and give you some tips if that would be useful?

Hi
I really feel for you and can relate if it helps to know you're not alone . I have a rescue who's been with us for five months with many of the same issues (including reluctant family)

As others have said, you really do need to dedicate time and consistency to training & in the last month I am already seeing a difference .

In terms of not being able to leave him alone, I can highly recommend separation, anxiety, Facebook group and the Be Right Back training schedule. it might only be a small win and progress is very slow. I can now leave my dog for a couple of minutes without a complete meltdown and he no longer follows me from room to room.

The next thing I'd recommend is teaching him to settle. Again, baby steps start with seconds and lots of praise/treats and build up. Mine isn't calm and still goes a bit bonkers at the door or people coming and going but can now settle on command for a few minutes and building up daily.

Indoor antics - get him on a lead. When someone comes in I now have DDog on a short lead so he can't rush up and jump and gets praise when he calms.

Recall - this needs time teaching commands at home & in the garden before you attempt out on long lead with outdoor distractions.

Walking - this has been the quickest and biggest win. Ditch the retractable lead and every time he pulls you stop. He needs to learn walking next to you gets praise - lots of treats in your pocket and distraction when you meet other dogs. I also make sure I have one calm shorter walk a day which is just for training so not worried about exercise or allowing lots of sniffing just teaching good habits. I do mine last thing at night and then home to bed - it's made his bedtime earlier and more calm so with adding in.

There's loads of other things we need to work on but these are already making a huge difference.

Good luck na d keep at it

My dog was a nightmare at 18 months
Chewing things up, mouthing, humping, reactive to other dogs in an excited way (frustrated greeter), loads of energy. Our kids are older and can help and Dh helped (although reluctantly) but it was shit. A year later it's much better and I am glad we didn't give him back to the rescue. I often thought of it but would have been ashamed to quit.

If you put some big effort in. DP has to as well. For 6 months things will be better and you will have a lovely dog.

You could use her food to much better effect
100% start making her work for it.
Mine has a Kong, a Kong Wobbler and a snuffle mat to make meals last longer and we keep some back from his food allowance to reward him during the day
To get any of that he must sit, wait, make eye contact and not jump up to get any food. He cottons on very fast where food is involved.

Also walks. In order to go out he must sit, wait not jump up or bark. I don't open the door until he does those and if he moves or barks the door shuts. Again he got that super quick in one session because he really really wants to go out.
Trainer suggested don't expect too much all at once. First thing out of the gate he's super excited and no training will register so try to get somewhere quick that he can run a bit. Ours seems much calmer after he's had a poo! Then do the loose lead walk training on the way home. As it gets more embedded you extend it.

On walks I take a treat pouch with chicken and sausage at all times and to start with would reward just him checking in and paying attention to me. He knows stop, heel (come back to my side), watch me and I can now get him to walk calmly past most things although cats and motorbikes are still an issue. Also bought Total Recall and worked through that. He's not 100%. Still buggers off like a twat after other dogs occasionally but much less and I can usually pre-empt him as I can read him better now.

He has a Ruffwear harness and a longline and that has been a godsend once we both got used to it. It means he can have some freedom to sniff about but still be on lead. DH also uses an extender lead but I never do. I much prefer the longline. With the longline you can drop it to let them run and still have a bit more chance of getting them back by stepping on it. I used to do that quite often.

Once you know they are fed and had a good walk then you tell yourself their needs are met and you ignore pestering and reward them for settling down. You wait for them to get bored and go lie down and then you lob a bit of kibble. It takes a while but with a combo of no reward for pestering, reward for lying down calmly and routine that's how my dog learnt to have rest periods. Routine is so helpful as dogs go off cues a lot. If mine sees me sit down at my laptop he goes straight to bed now as he knows he won't get attention when I am working.

I would recommend a new trainer
We've had at least 4! One I binned off for wanting is to get an ecollar, one was classes in a village hall which he dicked around and we didn't get far, the two best ones were 1:1 classes outside or in a dedicated arena with a guy who does gun dog for all and man trailing (I cried on him once I was so pissed off with dog) and a lady who does scent work. Those were loads more successful. Partly just he's a big dog and he needed more space. Initially I thought why would I train him to do silly stuff when I just want him to behave but in fact it's working on your bond, doing something positive together so you can feel good about her again and it's transferable stuff mostly impulse control and paying attention to me. It's also true that it tires them more to use their brain. Ddog can't really manage a full 1hr class. He often gives up and lies down before the end and then he sleeps deeply.

He has 2x45 min walks a day but shared between me, DH and teen DD. At least one with some off lead time.

7am wake up straight out for walk
8/8.30 breakfast
Lie down til lunch time
12/1pm we have lunch, he often has a frozen Kong or a chew and we always do some training games. He enjoys a sequence of basic stuff for a reward (sit, down, paw, touch nose, spin, go to place, stay, walk to heel).
1-3.30/4 Lie down till kids back from school
4pm plays with the kids ball, tuggy (loves his TuffENuff fleecy toy so much we have 3), hide and seek kids or toys
6pm walk usually more of an on lead sniffy one
7pm dinner and hang around hoping to 'help'/ get scraps when I am cooking or washing up
8/9pm go and settle down in living room and hope to get invited on the sofa
11pm goes to bed downstairs

I used to get pissed off that so much is management of the environment etc (why can't he just not do it?!) but it is. We got a box for shoes, put remotes on a high shelf, never leave any food on counter tops and we got an outside mailbox and never let him in the living room unsupervised in the daytime (he barks out if the window). Mostly he no longer does any of that stuff. He no longer got any reward for it so he stopped basically.

Our trainer used to talk about paying the dog for their work so any behaviour you like to see you pay in food or fun and any you don't you ignore.
DH is still a bit prone to shout at the dog for bad behaviour but really it is pointless as dog has no clue what you mean and possibly even thinks it's good that he's getting attention. This is why dog demand barks at DH and not at me...

Basically this is a tough difficult stage but she can be a good dog once you get out the other side of this. Sit down with DH and make a plan of attack. Divide up walks. Agree on a routine and rules for everyone to be consistent with and look into a new trainer.

One more thing about the sofa
Lounge is for lounging!
No playing in the living room. Play in the garden or the kitchen diner but not the living room if you go in there it's settle down time.
When he used to get wound up in there we would go elsewhere to play with him or give him something quiet to do like a chew, lickimat or Kong. You may have to be a bit patient with these. When he first got the lickimat and the snuffle mat he tried to chew them up and with the Kong he demand barked at us to fix it but we didn't give in and after a while he realised how to do it himself
Now he has the association that you go in there and you settle. Sometimes he does still whine or bark to try to get DH to get up and fetch him a chew but there's always something to work on.

Dogs do what works for them
You are training them all the time even when you think you aren't.
If a behaviour gets them a reward they repeat it and the reward might be scary thing goes away or attention from you even if -be

Can I suggest you start by just randomly putting his lead on and standing outside your home. Don't say "walkies" or anything to excite him.
Let him get used to scents, sounds, people and whatever comes along your road. Stay calm and even if he can only tolerate a few minutes before becoming excited it will help him to learn to relax. If he (or you) become overwhelmed just step back indoors.
Try to do it as often as you can.

Just want to echo what @ThePure said:
would recommend a new trainer
We've had at least 4! One I binned off for wanting is to get an ecollar, one was classes in a village hall which he dicked around and we didn't get far, the two best ones were 1:1 classes outside or in a dedicated arena with a guy who does gun dog for all and man trailing (I cried on him once I was so pissed off with dog) and a lady who does scent work

My dog also didnt get on with village hall trainers - they are naff and not good for big adolescent dogs and usually the trainers arent very good trainers.

Id find someone new - outdoor classes are much better psychologically on your dog. Theyre not trapped in a room with a load of dogs

I couldn't belief how many dogs were crammed in this rather small village hall! Ok for puppies but this was a class for rescue/ older dogs.
Trainer was OK but the set up was hopeless. It took me 15mins to get him in from all the sniffing and pissing in the car park, then my dog would not sit in our spot quietly, he lay in the middle of the floor ignoring me and trying to chat up all the lady dogs, he could do about 5s concentrating and then he'd want to get away, barked and set them all off. He was a total embarrassment. Once the trainer praised me for his excellent down stay. He'd actually gone to sleep in the middle of the floor! When we practiced recall outside he ran off to sniff the car park again and nothing would get him back. She told me to hide round the corner and he'd miss me and come back. 15mins later she conceded that wasn't working for him. She gave me a refund on the last class.

I have a working lab around the same age. Mine is fairly chilled out as he got plenty of exercise daily, until an injury, and then a nasty attack. Mine has now become ‘dog reactive’. Mine is fairly well trained, has really good impulse control, threshold, solid sits, downs. Is doing well on loose lead walking, with corrections, does not bite, or destroy, does not even bark, accepts visitors in the home with mild interest. Bit stupid with cats. Gets on well with dogs it knows.

But I was badly abused in the last attack, by a couple, verbally. Lost confidence massively. Have behaviourist incoming, renting secure field to work on daily, kerching. I do have the time, but the dream dog ownership we had before, could go anywhere, do anything. Down the toilet.

So I feel your pain, Have found Nigel Reed videos and books interesting and the dog whisperer. To be honest I am not a novice dog owner, but I am shamed at how little i know about dogs really. My whole mind has shifted to realise that they live in such a confusing world, and we ask them to be virtually human. I am enjoying the process of learning and doing things that are making my dog less anxious already.

I do have time though, as empty nester of sorts.

I’m not a dog trainer OP and I can’t help with all of the issues. I’ve had 4 dogs and these are my thoughts…

Sleep - is she getting enough? If not this can manifest as high energy. Teach her to settle or crate her so she has to sleep.

Feeding - do ALL food in enrichment feeders. Ditch the bowl. Dogs become more tired from mental stimulation. Mine has a Kong wobbler, snuffle mat, slow feeder bowl, lick mats and frozen kongs on rotation. Also check for protein content - over 28% in a kibble apparently is quite high and too much protein can mean too much energy.

Biting - are you redirecting to toys? Keep treat stations lying around next to doors etc so you can chuck a bit away for distraction. Walk into a room holding a toy so you can shove it in her mouth. Tell her no when she bites and remove yourself from the room if she doesn’t stop. This worked well with my dog jumping on us too.

Make life boring for her in between so she learns to go to her toys and not jump on people. Ignore her unless it’s on your terms - so have spaces that are hers only, spaces where play is okay, and spaces for you only (kitchen etc). Make her space more interesting with toys and treats to find. Walk from one end of the house to the other and ignore her, do this repeatedly so she realises nothing exciting is happening and she will go and do her own thing.

And up the exercise. Can you take her to a secure field? We have plenty near us to rent for about £10/hour. If not then a waist lead for short works might work. Long line for recall training. Tell her to heel EVERY TIME she pulls and refuse to move. It’ll sink in eventually but you have to be consistent.

And maybe try a calming plug in at home.

It does sound like you could use some professional help though. And consistency for her in training.

Oh God! Village Hall classes... I still get a nervous twitch at the thought! My girl was five times twice the size of all the others, a sea of poo crosses. There were too many dogs in a small space! She wanted to jump on them. It was one step forward, 5 back for progress, and I ended up dreading it. I stopped going and found another puppy class with a maximum of 5 puppies with plenty of room. She was fine until we hit 'teen', I then moved to a behavioural specialist who was brilliant. He later advised another trainer for enrichment rather than obedience/ behavioural.

I agree with this PP 100%

Haven't read the full thread so this may have been mentioned but join the Facebook group 'Dog Training Advice and Support', it's run by a group of behaviourists who are experts in force free training. You need to read their training guides first and you can then interact with them to ask any questions you might have.