If no medical issue do we PTS?

[Wallmirror]

We really are at a loss with our older dog. She was a rescue who we adopted at 18 months so she is nearly 5.5 years old now. No reported aggression from those who gave her up and none observed while she was in kennels. They even advised she could live with older children). She has always been very highly strung due to her breed mix (husky cross). She can be aloof at times but does sometimes seek out contact, for example, if the mood takes her she will come up and snuggle next to one of us while watching tv. She is the sort of dog where it’s always very clear whether she is is a good mood or whether anxious/fearful.

In recent years there have been two bite incidents. Both involved altercations with another (female) dog where the dog walker got in the middle of it. Given the nature of these incidents we were not unduly concerned and neither was the dog walker who knew her well. We saw a behaviourist following this who said from what they assessed that she didn’t seem to be an aggressive dog and she could be managed given the nature of what happened. We have no children and our second younger dog is male - they get on well and apart from playing together, which is very balanced, he generally leaves her be (usually glued to us). They have existed happily together for the last 3 years.

In the last 6 months she has become increasingly intolerant of being handled when needed, for example to go in the bath/be brushed and has air snapped at us on occasion. Previously this has never been an issue and we would placate her with treats while the other washed her, it’s now impossible.

In the last 6 weeks or so we have noticed that she has become very intolerant/grumpy in the evenings, snapping at my husband if he needs to step over her which has never been a problem as we would verbally announce ourselves (she has great form for lying in the middle of walkways in the house) or if accidentally nudged (she was curled up at our feet in bed and reacted when one of us moved). She has always been the sort of dog to take herself off for a nap and we have noticed when coming into our room (she sometimes naps on our bed) she seems frozen/dazed when we switch the light on and it’s very clear from her body language not to approach. Last week my husband went up to our room, switched the light on, went back out to use the loo, went back in and sat at the foot of the bed. She rolled over to him on her back, he rubbed her tummy as she was being wiggly and seemed like she usually is when she’s being playful and wants a tummy rub (as opposed to lifting her paw on her back - we know this from her is a polite leave me alone), she rolled back on her front, he lay down, no actual contact and she lost it, reacted and bit him breaking the skin.

He is devastated but insists he wasn’t doing anything which we know would have provoked her, as I said we know her behaviour pretty inside out at this point.

We know vet is first port of call for a full check up, but our worry is if there is no obvious medical cause what the next steps are. Ever since the first bite incident, even though it seemed to have an explanation at the time I’ve been on eggshells and constantly worry about her and if I’m honest, in my gut, I’ve since then wondered if there’s something wrong. This is even more stark a contrast with other dog who I never worry about. Other than the aggression/intolerance and the ‘dazed’ evening episodes we haven’t observed any other physical concerns although we are keeping an eye and have removed access to our room so we can watch her. We did wonder if she was now resource guarding the room although she has never displayed any resource guarding previously. Even booking the vet is proving to be heart wrenching as we both worry it’s the beginning of the end even though we owe it to her to get her properly checked out.

Just wondered if anyone had experienced anything similar or had any advice.

Very aware of the dogs showing belly as appeasement behaviour and she seemed wiggly and not stiff when the incident happened with my husband but it’s possible he misread her of course.

Feeling very low this evening, mixed day, morning giddy like nothing bothered her and worse as the day has gone on. This evening she hopped up and snuggled in on the sofa, wriggling in and nuzzling. I slowly and with her awake brushed my hand on her upper front shoulder and she fully snapped at me and grazed my hand. At this point I hope there’s something medically wrong as I don’t recognise her.

That sounds really difficult, hopefully your vet will be able to work out what's going on today.

Do you think you are noticing a pattern of behavioural change when the meds wear off? That is probably telling you something.

(Although behavioural challenges in dogs can be worse in the evenings anyway due to general tiredness/ grumpiness)

Some dogs are extremely sensitive to slight changes in owner behaviour when the owner is more tentative around them.

I have a spaniel who is fine with confident people but would be reactive to anyone who was tentative with him. I'm just thinking if you're being careful of how to touch her she might be aware of this slight mood / behaviour shift from you that might be acting as a trigger for her.

I'd agree you probably need to be as hands -free with her as possible until the vet helps you establish what is going on.

My dog had a history of reacting in similar ways but this was present from the get-go so no sudden change that is more suggestive of a health concern.

Fwiw my dog's behaviour has vastly improved and I was in a situation of considering PTS due to the severity of his resource/location guarding issues and handling issues. There were no obvious medical issues for him and a combination of management, training and desensitising (and also Prozac at one point) transformed him into a dog that is happily cuddling alongside me this morning.

If your vet can not establish a physical cause they might be able to recommend a behaviourist that they work with.

@Wallmirror because you mentioned ticks, please ask your vet about Lyme disease - it can cause a lot of odd symptoms including being overly sensitive to touch.

https://www.vet.cornell.edu/animal-health-diagnostic-center/laboratories/serology-immunology/lyme-disease#:~:text=Dogs%20can%20display%20several%20forms,with%20Lyme%20disease%20in%20dogs.

Reward based training can absolutely help a dog with a behavioural issue. Depends on the dog. A friend has successfully used it to cure her dog of resource guarding. I had a dog with severe fear based aggression which it didn’t work with but you can’t say it never works.

but it doesn’t sound like a behaviour issue with this dog, sounds much more like a physical issue and pain. Good luck for today.

I will ask about Lyme disease. She is a tick magnet at certain times of the year despite the various remedies. She usually gets a thorough check over if we’ve been walking in certain areas as you can guarantee she will have at least one. We’ve gone from being able to remove ticks from the tops of paws, heads, chest and even just inside her ear to not being able to touch her at all.

Have you done what was suggested and pay for a full Xray? Ultimately, unless you advocate for your dog with the vets (and by mean, I this push the vet until they agree) your dog is going to continue being in pain.

I probably come across as very heartless, but when I last posted I said you had to advocate for your dog and force the vets to take action and given there had been three days of meds and no improvement you should go back - and you seem to have not taken that advice. When did you last take her to the vets? Was it before I posted suggesting you take her back as the meds didn’t work?

Put your dog first and take her back to the vets today and stop being so passive about her pain! The below is just shocking - your dog, who has never shown aggression is in pain and you’re saying ‘I’ll ask about ticks.’ You should have been straight onto the vets this morning - I was when my dog did something similar.

I slowly and with her awake brushed my hand on her upper front shoulder and she fully snapped at me and grazed my hand.

I’m not trying to be harsh (although I imagine it comes across that way) but if you haven’t actually been back to the vets since the meds that clearly don’t work were given, I’d be a bit horrified!

My dog lab mix had a very bad reaction to flea and tick tablets. And the wormer the vet gave her.
She became spaced out , seizures, lost the use of her back legs, aggressive and withdrawn.
There's lots on the internet about it.

Within 6 months of a special detox diet and no more tick flea meds she's back to her normal self.

I only use panacur wormer on her now.

She is booked in today for further investigations. We have been in contact with the vet over the weekend. On the ‘tick’ comment I was responding to a previous poster. Absolutely no need to be so rude.

It wasn't meant to be rude, OP. It may well be Lyme disease, but it may well not be given the other posts you have made.

It's been nearly two weeks since your first post...and you've taken your very sick dog to the vets once in that time - vets cannot do a diagnosis over the phone. That's why they operate OOO services and if you ring up 9/10 times they'll say take your dog in urgently for something like this.

Please advocate for her today. Do not let the vet palm you off with more (probably bloody expensive) tablets that will not do anything. The fact she is seeking you out and wanting cuddles, and only snapping under certain circumstances, is very telling of the amount of pain she is in. She wants you to help her. Don't let her down like the vet has.

They are going to start the day with light sedation so she is still awake to see if they can pinpoint an area of pain on examination as she was just generally reacting to all touch. They plan to do bloods and X-rays and give her a thorough going over whilst she is fully under. I believe they will be thorough and they’ve agreed given how anxious she is at present we get it all done today.

I'm not 100% convinced that the seeking out and wanting attention behaviour followed by reactivity is indicative of distress and pain, although I acknowledge it certainly could be.

But my dog certainly had similar mixed signals...for eg. he would be desperate to say hello to people with the typical body language of any dog ...straining at the lead to see then, wiggling, waggling tail frantically, bowing, but would then snap if they came near.

Similar with nudging for attention and then snapping at hands.

No pain, no medical issue, just an unusual presentation of mixed signals.

Normally you would expect a dog to be stiff, still, standoffish, intense stare if they didn't want you near them, or to see the more overt aggressive display signals eg, police dogs with their handlers in a highly aroused state, if they are a potential danger to others.

But my dog was similar to OPs; apparently desiring of attention but snappy if it was offered.

@suggestionsplease1 but was your dog always like that.? The OP says until recently her dog was fine so something has changed to cause it.

Yes, from about 14 weeks we knew there was an issue beyond typical puppy behaviour as he was ferociously resource guarding from that age.

I would tend to agree it sounds like there is something further at work here because of the sudden onset, but I just don't dismiss out of hand other possibilities.

If I lapsed in how I work with my dog presently I know he has the potential to revert to previous behaviours again. It is careful reinforcement of our good relationship through training, ongoing work around treats, foods and locations and body handling every day that means we are in a good position presently.

So circumstances can change, some dogs can feel unsettled quickly by things...eg another dog in the household going through their own stages of development, a slight shift in dynamic as they begin to sense their owner is becoming nervous around them, a lapse in training etc.

They then practice one behaviour that 'works' for them...eg snapping, because they feel unsettled and anxious, and it achieves what they want at that point in time, in those circumstances. And they 'recall' that and naturally begin to employ it again in other similar circumstances.

OP does not know the full history of this dog, it is possible that these behaviours have been present before, and it is just some circumstances now that have triggered them again. And it's a bit of a vicious circle, because as an owner you change your behaviour to your dog the first time it happens as you are surprised and nervous... the dog then senses you are nervous and becomes more agitated themselves in response. In the case of a very sensitive, reactive dog these scenarios can develop and entrench seemingly out if nowhere, but they are not.

So I think OP is doing exactly the right thing in establishing a medical cause and I agree it sounds likely. But I just wouldn't rule out other possibilities.

Gosh I hope the vets find a cause today.

OP if she is better in the morning with painkillers, my instinct would be to see if you can add an afternoon dose of painkillers too?

Just had a call from the vet. X-rays showing dysplasia in the left hip. Bloods being done as a precaution. Full body exam didn’t reveal anything other than on her hip. Going to get the full report when we collect in an hour once she is fully brought around.

What do they think they can do for the dysplasia? Pain meds? Better pain meds than before?

Yet to discuss. Very quick call just to double check we were happy to do the bloods. Collecting her in about half an hour so will have a full chat. I will be raising the fact that she’s obviously in a great deal of pain and what the options are there.

Hopefully when the correct pain meds are given OP you will have a different dog. So glad you went through all the tests for your dog.

Canine Arthritis as tons of advice to help make life easier for dogs with HD.

No training "out the behaviour" or "needing to have authority" over your dog needed

I hope so. The x-rays have also been sent off to a specialist to confirm the diagnosis and that it should be treated with management at the moment. Once that’s come back we’ll agree a management plan. I did push for stronger painkillers as they were just going to give her what we had this week so she’s got that plus anti-inflammation meds to take as well. She’s very wobbly after her sedation bless her.

Absolutely everything else checked out ok including bloods so that’s reassuring.

It can make them very sensitive and touch reactive. Glad the vet caught the hip problem, hopefully with the right meds everything will settle down.

I think they just want to confirm the diagnosis as she’s not lame or limping in anyway which would make it really clear but there is a marked difference between her two hips.

Dogs compensate really well with chronic pain hence how hard it is for us to find the cause as they will often look fine. However many behavioural cases will be due to pain or discomfort. No real surprise that your dog is not limping but could still be in pain.

Other parts of the body may also be sore due to the dog changing how they walk, lie etc to be comfortable. Sleep is interrupted due to pain which also makes the dogs less good tempered.

That's great news (that you've pushed for stronger painkillers and have a diagnosis)! I hope the new painkillers work and once they've 100% confirmed it all that they find a way of helping you manage her pain.

Dysplasia can be agony in dogs - so at least now you know that it wasn't her personality changing or anything you/the household had done.

The pain management will be crucial as what this has shown is it has a massive impact on her behaviour and if that were never to improve I think we would have to make a very difficult decision. Other than her spay and vaccinations she’s not needed any other medical treatment and so this is very new to us in that sense.