dog disappointment/impact on family - help me

[icechip]

Namechanged.

Feeling so upset and anxious right now. Have a 3 year old dog - getting her was totally driven by me, did my research, spent time considering breeds etc etc. A perfect litter came up just before we went into lockdown, so we went for it - and naively I thought this would be fine - but I do wonder if some of the issues we currently face are a result of lack of proper socialisation early on. 😞

Anyway, as ddog has matured, she has become increasingly nervy towards strangers. She is amazingly affectionate and loving towards us and people that she knows....when I talk to friends about this problem, they honestly don't believe me because they just know her as a hyper-friendly dog - she's always so happy and waggy around them.

But over the past year, she's become much more guardy at the door - growling at strangers and delivery men. She's also - on a couple of occasions over the past year - snapped at people who've taken her by surprise by stroking her...we were just out on a walk with her and she snapped at a waiter in a cafe - he was holding a big tray and I think it freaked her out as he reached for her head. There always seems to be some kind of 'reason' when she gets angsty - but I just feel absolutely distraught about this. Grew up with bomb-proof dogs so it's a total shock. She's not the dog I wanted or expected for our family - and the thought of another 10plus years being on edge on every walk or whenever people come to the door fills me with absolute dread, to be frank.

What's also challenging is that DH (who does the lion's share of walks) is absolutely in love with her and refuses to think she needs any kind of further training or help - and in a way, I'm not sure you can train out personality if this is just her. He thinks she's just a dog being a dog, and if she gets snappy or growly then there is a reason for that and I need to stop worrying and suck it up, essentially. It sounds ridiculous but it's actually affecting our marriage because I feel he totally dismisses my concerns and feelings, and he thinks I'm being an uptight killjoy who complains about the dog. Our kids love her.

If you've got this far, I'd appreciate any advice or thoughts. Either on accepting that dog you wanted isn't the dog you got (which is where I am I think) or indeed, stories of dogs that chilled out with age. I'm actually getting a bit tearful writing this as it just isn't how I thought it would be.

You want the vet to refer you to a behaviourist really, hence the check up to rule anything physical out first.

They don’t need to see the dog displaying the behaviours and yes they’ll be able to give you a behavioural plan based on what you tell them for management when she’s faced with something new.

For your DH... he’s not wrong in that, it’s normal dog behaviour, it’s that it’s unwanted that’s the issue really and potentially dangerous because if it’s escalating you can’t guarantee she won’t bite someone.

And until you have a plan in place and probably while you’re working on it, you do want to be managing her world so she’s not reacting, if that means making sure she can’t get to the door before you answer it and avoiding taking her some places then that’s how it is... it’s a shame for you when you can’t do things you want to with a dog, but not for them, they don’t like it, that’s why they’re reacting, they’re stressed and miserable.

I’m on my second in a row unplanned for reactive dog, as in, the issues happened after we took them.

It’s hard, because owning a dog should be enjoyable and owning a reactive dog isn’t always, it’s a lot of extra work with less reward.

@MissLucyEyelesbarrow and @dogfoodonmysocks - really useful and thank you. I suppose what is difficult is that in certain situations she has been entirely ok but others not, and it’s really hard to predict when she’ll react.

@tabulahrasa - thank you so much. Curious about ‘she can’t get to the door before you answer’? I now make sure she’s in a different room before I answer the door, but she often reaches the actually door before I can move her and then open it…is that wrong? Xx

Ah Op, you have my dog ! (Not the same breed but the personality)
Mine was not a lockdown dog, did all the 'right' things and yet between 1 and 2 she became increasingly reactive. She was never keen on strangers to be fair.. her breed generally only wants family to touch her, and I made the mistake (hindsight is a wonderful gift!) of not respecting or realising that.

She is also 'worse' with me, her primary person.

I have gone through a fair few stages:
Grief.. that she's not a happy go lucky dog who loves all humans and all dogs.
Deep worry that she might get 'worse'
Stress that we can never go to a cafe/holiday/leave her

I got a behaviourist in. Joined Reactive DogsUK (highly recommended btw)
Started learning about how dogs communicate, WHAT she was telling me.

And started being her advocate.

NO-ONE gets to touch without HER express permission. Why should they? I don't want strangers touching me! She needs to meet someone at least 4 times before she accepts that they are not scary. If someone is coming to the house (where she will bark her head off) I try to meet them outside and we walk in WITH her... it helps. If it's unexpected, I pop her in the garden where she can watch and calm.

Out and about... I avoid places that she can't cope with, and we observe her triggers from a distance. In my dogs case she is selectively reactive to unknown dogs.. we keep a good space, and if we can't we turn, treat, retreat. We reward every successful pass, and while it's a slow process, we have far more wins than fails these days (she's just turned 4)

And .. while she's not the social butterfly I perhaps imagined... I've learned to love the dog I have, with all her quirks. She doesn't NEED to love dog parks, or cafes or pubs. She does need to cope with visitors now and again and so we make it safe for them, by not making her face them until she is more comfortable (she is not a bite risk , has never air snapped but she does bark her head off!)

And as I have got less anxious about her... so has she!

You can manage this.. :)

I have a similar dog, who is beautiful and loving if approached in the right way. But if someone goes straight for her head she will back away and eventually will snap if her retreat isn't heeded. We practice letting consent with her, and it's building her confidence. No one is allowed to stroke her unless they know her, and then they have to get her consent to.

Our vet does desensitisation clinics, so every time she has to go for something bad, a few days later she goes to a desensitisation clinic where the nurses sits quietly with her, plays and feeds her treats. It's stops her being scared of the vet.

We have worked at length with our dog trainer and her issues (resource guarding and air snapping) reduce with each passing day, but we have to read her signs, and respect her space much more than we did with our previous dog. She gets over stimulated easily, so we make sure that she is given plenty of time to rest and unwind and decompress after any stimulating experience, such as a trip into town to a cafe. After that sort of trip, she's given the rest of the day to sleep, and reset. We leave her be unless she comes to us.

In your shoes I would definitely get a nervous dog vest so people don't approach her when your out and work with a trainer/behaviourist to help you understand her signals better and to gain a more trusting bond together.

Petting consent not letting consent

Genuinely the most useful thing I've learnt with my dog is about reading their more subtle body language. I bet she's giving some low key signs to show you what she's finding uncomfortable- it's not necessarily the location itself, it could be many aspects - sounds, smells, where you are in the space (and they pick up on your stress levels too!). for my boy I've worked out one key trigger is when he's in a space with no escape. So could be walking alongside a fence when a stranger approaches us, rather than an open field. or in a pub sitting in a corner, and the waiter comes and leans over us, it's more scary than if we were in the middle of the room, for example.

A good behaviourist will help you with counter conditioning and working with her under threshold to help her with her fears.

For example if it's new places she's nervous in, they'll help you identify something new (but not too overwhelming) she can experience where you make it a positive experience for her (maybe with food, or play), and then as she gets more confident you can increase the newness and business.
As others have said though, she's a collie so it is just her breed.

Also as other people have said; stop letting strangers pet your dog. Mine hates it too - looks away, lip licking - I ask people to stop immediately if I don't get ahead of it. They're usually fine if I say he's nervous. But usually I body block!

Oh no, I didn’t mean you have to psychically know the door is going to go, lol

i just mean, you get in the routine of door goes, you go sort the dog out before you go to answer it.

As in, you’d said you’d started doing that, so you just make that your automatic reaction to the door going.

It’s difficult to reply when you don’t say what the difficulties are.

So from what I can make out your dog is reactive to certain situations. No idea what (because you haven’t said).

If my dog hadn’t been socialised to the noise from traffic, for example. I wouldn’t expect her to walk along a main road with traffic passing. What I would do - and have done, many times - with a “rescue” dog, is sat on the pavement, adjacent to a main Rd and kept the dog close. Every time a bus/lorry/van passed I spoke to my dog telling her/him “It’s fine” and gave her/him a treat for not reacting. Giving a treat conditions the dog to think the “scary thing” = a treat. Eventually (and it doesn’t take long) they will associate traffic noise as being a good thing.

Exactly the same psychology is used when getting your dog used to screaming kids, joggers, inquisitive, rude, off lead dogs, teaching them to walk past people/other dogs, tricks…. Dogs need to be desensitised to anything they fear. You need to be more exciting than anything your dog will encounter and encourage them to always be close to you. Because you are the greatest, most exciting thing…. So much more exciting than the out of control dog that is heading towards you, because it’s owner hasn’t taught it recall. Your dog should not move toward the random dog. Your dog will want to stay close to you… and does, because you are the best thing ever and will always trump some random, out of control dog. And your dog will be rewarded for sticking close. Get it?

Some dog owners think throwing their puppy into a group of dogs to run around is socialising them. Nothing could be more damaging for the puppy.

Any behaviour you expect from your dog will happen with time, patience, clear instructions and loads of high quality treats - my dogs will do anything for cheese!

I lose patience with dog owners who’s dog lunges, snapping at my ankles, when they allow their growling, snarling, on lead dog to get in the face and snap at my dog when my dog is sticking close to my heel, ignoring the snarling dog. They they use the excuse “He’s a rescue dog. I rescued him”. (Aren’t I wonderful 🙄)

The poor dog is set for a life of being shackled because the owner who “rescued” them has done nothing to enrich the dogs life. But you can guarantee they will be the first to complain about dogs being walked off lead - even when the dog has no interest in the dog or it’s owner.

Anyone who is nervous about running around off lead dogs has good cause if the dog approaches them or their children. A well trained dog won’t approach anyone.

I am more concerned that people think it’s ok for their child to stroke an on lead dog. No! They are on lead for good reason. They may be on lead because their owner hasn’t bothered to teach them a solid recall but, personally, I wouldn’t take the chance. Most dogs I know who are walked on lead is because they are nasty and will take your hand off given the chance.

There’s not a chance I would allow my dog to approach an on lead dog for fear of him/her having his/her face taken off.

Give me a boisterous, out of control, friendly off lead dog anytime before a vicious, out of control, on lead dog (as much as I hate being jumped on by random dogs).

A dog may be on lead. It doesn’t mean it’s under control - especially when on the end of a bloody useless, dangerous retractable lead!

I'm not sure you can blame lack of socialising in lockdown. It really wasn't for a long time and having owned a collie cross way way out in the sticks who saw less people than most did in lockdowns, we never had a problem going or socialising anywhere.
A dog trainer can help but you seem to not imagine it.

Also one thing that’s genuinely confusing me, if we avoid her triggers (ie keep her away from unknown situations) doesn’t that risk making her WORSE in the long run? Ie if she never has to deal with new people and places, then surely she’ll never get used to them?

If your continuously exposing her to things that scare her you’ll make it worse, because each experience is negative and adds to the fear. If you take her somewhere new and it’s scary, it will reinforce that she’s correct to thing new places are scary. This is why so many dogs get worse when people try and ‘socialise’ them in the wrong way.

Theres no reason for her to need to learn to deal with new people touching her if you stop them touching her. Change your expectations. If she dislikes cafes, sit somewhere a bit out of the way with a coffee where she’s not so stressed. Let her sit and watch people without the fear that someone may touch her. Eventually she will learn to relax once she knows that you’ll block interactions she isn’t comfortable with. You really need to make sure that nothing she perceives as negative happens in order to increase her confidence.

I think in a way you do have to accept sadly that she isn’t a social butterfly, much like many people! You can’t change genetics or personality, only adjust your management and expectations alongside quality training to improve her responses to situations.

One of mine was bought for a specific purpose, I waited years for a dog to do a particular job and spent many months training for it. Turns out the dog actually hates it, it took for the negative behaviour escalate before I took a step back and listened and realised that it was me forcing him rather than him wanting to do it. It was very disappointing for me but at the end of the day dogs don’t care or want to go to a cafe or walk around a busy town…if it’s too much then I would be tempted to let her enjoy what she enjoys and not put so much pressure on her to be a dog she isn’t.

I would 100% get advice from a behaviourist too, regardless of what your husband says!

Great advice, I was going to say similar. You need to stop capitulating to your partner ffs, you know there's a risk so tell him you're going ahead with a specialist trainer as she's a much loved ddog who doesn't deserve to pts because of an in denial owner. You know what's needed just get on and make it happen.

When we first got our rescue we didn't really understand what we should be doing we had had a dog before but from a puppy. It was a massive learning curve!
He was very much like your dog. Barking at people coming into the house or anywhere he saw as his territory. He would bark lots, be very jumpy, and would growl at men in particular. This could be outside the house to, for example sat in pub he would see the table as his territory. Two years later he's a pretty chilled out dog, who is off the lead, who likes to odd quiet pub and cafe visit. We are still working on his anxiety around the front door! But that's improving, he still barks and jumps at the window. I can called him away and get him to do a few commands then sit and stay, so I can shut the kitchen door and answer the door safely. He's not perfect but he's so much calmer.

Trigger stacking is the reason why you shouldn't be putting your dog in these situations at the moment.
I used a yellow lead and harness with nervous do not pet for about 9 months. There is absolutely no need for you to be letting strangers pet your dog especially when she giving you clear instructions she doesn't like it. Your dog needs to know you will advocate for her, this in turn will make her feel calmer. Then when she's calm you can then train her to do some alternate behaviour. For example every time someone might come to our cafe table I would have already asked our dog to sit and look at me, and give him a reward for calm behaviour. But you need to set her up for success and take it very slowly. Teach her what you want to do in her environment first. You need to spend time building up trust and confidence before you even think about taking her anywhere.

We had a great trainer/behaviourist who we did 4 one to one sessions with them I took him to her training classes too. Doing training and training games every day helps so much. It builds your relationship and gives your dogs brain things to work on and focus. So they then have an alternative behaviour to the anxious behaviour. Then hopefully you can preempt an anxious situation and instruct your dog to do something else and that behaviour will eventually replace the anxious behaviour.
Along side training I used dorwest valerian calming tablets for about 6months. I'm sure they helped our dog be more responsive to training.

One of the most important things you can do as a dog owner is advocate for your dog.

Don't put her in situations where people can touch her. Body block if necessary and say don't be afraid to say "no, she's nervous of strangers. Please do not touch her". If they approach anyway, you may need to physically get up and move your dog out of the situation. Don't be afraid of looking like a neurotic owner - you know your dog better than anyone else.

The same applies to the door - never let her approach the door. She needs to get into a routine where the door going = silence plus treat + her going into another room safely out of the way. We trained ours to go to the kitchen behind a gate as he'd be off out the door like a shot given the opportunity 😂 the front door isn't opened unless he's shut away.

I would also say that it's totally possible your dog behaves completely differently with your DH. Our beagle is much better behaved for me because I'm more willing to advocate for him and train him in public - DH finds it a bit embarrassing I think. Dogs pick up on your fear and anxiety and it travels down the lead to them - a confident owner generally produces a confident dog.

You can get coats or leads with big bold letters saying 'anxious'. This should stop people trying to stroke her without warning and be more careful in how they approach. I would start with that. And yes, take her to see a behaviourist.

Also your husband really needs to takes this seriously because if you carry on like this one day your dog will snap and bite someone. She's giving you lots of warnings. Don't let that happen!

Exactly the same happened to me and our GSD who we lost last year. I loved every bone in her body but the problem was me! I would pass my feelings down the lead to her and they totally feel it so then they react. I used to be worried every time we went near another dog or person just in case, so I was feeling her other was a reason to be nervous/ anxious/ protective! When my hubby or friend walked her loosely and confidently no problems! It took time but I learnt to relax and help her and myself. A good behaviourist will be able to teach you how to help her and yourself.