I thought dogs were meant to not mess in their crate!?

[Mumma2Ro]

Hello
we’ve got a 9 week old Labrador. She’s amazing and we are so in love with her.
but she keeps pooping in her crate!! A bit more context, it’s only been when she has been in her crate with the door shut. So either over night or when I’ve been on the school run.
I thought the whole idea of the crate was that it was their safe space and they don’t mess in there!?
never any wees just poos.
Her Poos are very soft atm while we are transitioning her from raw food diet to kibble. Could this be why! Is she struggling to hold it. But it doesn’t happen any other time, all the rest of her poos are done in the garden. It’s 1.30am and I am yet again putting wash on 😩😩
sorry for the rant. Any advice please.
just now I went down as soon as she started crying, I never leave her crying in there.

@YouProbablyWontLikeTheAnswer

You probably wont like my answer but that's bollocks my puppy has always been in a crate, he was a puppy not a baby, he wasn't lonely, he's absolutely fine. If my family is his pack then he is at the bottom of that pack, he is secure and well loved.

I think it's more likely to be a feeding problem.

Agree.

If you have a new baby, put it in a crate and see if it stops shitting in nappies .

Now explain why you think crating housetrains a puppy.

If you are doing all the right stuff re going out a couple of times at night etc then she may just need to be a bit bigger before she can do it

But if you are changing her food that is also a thing - gave my dog diarrhoea and it wasn't about being trained it was just a matter of getting over the change in food

I have to say I didn't crate train either of mine. They have never chewed anything and are fine being left home alone. You could try leaving the crate door open and making sure she has lots of toys? I honestly think mine didn't chew anything because they had so many toys to play with they didn't bother with anything else

Our puppies are always crate trained. From day one they are in the kitchen and we sleep upstairs. No way would I do it any differently. However, the alarm is set and the puppy goes outside once during the night and early first thing. They have never messed their crates.

Last feed by 5, no later.

Let out 2-3 times a night.

Dont make the crate too big - it should only be large enough to stand up and turn around in. Any bigger and they see it as a run rather than a bed and will shit in it. They’re much less likely to shit in what they perceive as bed.

if you've only had the puppy for about a week , you can't leave it for 45 mins. you need to slowly work up to that.

Our puppy loves her crate. She’s very happy to go in at bedtime and if we leave her to go out. If she’s unsure about something she heads straight in there, as it’s her place of safety. Denying that crate training is good practice is a case of anthropomorphism. Anthropomorphism, refers to the practices in which humans attribute human emotional and behavioral features to non-human animals. Put simply, a puppy sees their crate as a place of comfort and safety, whereas a human sees a crate as a cage.

A 9 week old puppy should not be having a last feed at 5!

At 9 weeks we were feeding our lab at

6.30
11.00
3.30
8.00

She had a 3am toilet trip until about 10 weeks on that schedule. Once she was that age she'd go from about 10pm to 6am without needing a toilet trip.

By the time she is crying it's too late. She is a baby and desperate. Set an alarm for twenty minutes earlier than she is waking you. And then again about 5.00a.m. My Labrador puppy never ever messed in his crate.

Interesting isn't it that caging dogs has only been seen by some as good practice (it isn't) very recently. OP's puppy clearly sees her cage as just that and is not happy or feeling safe in it.

My dogs have beds which they love, in most rooms of the house and feel safe and cosy in those. No need for a cage and they are allowed to sleep naturally as dogs do changing positions frequently in the night.

No one will ever convince me that cages for dogs are for anything but owner's convenience.

It is good practice, to use a crate correctly. I can see you’re clearly expressing a case of anthropomorphism, as you see a crate as a “putting a dog in a cage”. In the real world of dog owning, puppies are very hard work. Used correctly a crate can help the puppy to settle and feel safe. Yes crate training is easier for owners. I’ve trained with and without, so I’m in a position to judge. If crate training prevents puppies being abandoned because they are such hard work, then I say yes to crates.

@Badgeringabout of course they are for owners convenience. My dog doesn’t have the run of the house, he’s not allowed in some rooms, also for my convenience.

Stress poo’s imo

5pm is way too early for a puppy's last feed of the day - assuming you get up and do breakfast at around 7am, that's 14 hours without food - too long for many adult dogs, let along a 9 week old.

Up your feeds to 4 a day
Teach puppy crate is awesome by feeding in it, putting treats in it etc etc. This will take time.

You need to sleep next to the crate, for quite some weeks. We had the crate in our room so I could hear the whimpers and I carried puppy out to the garden in silence/dark for wee/poo then back to bed. Eventually the time between the wake ups stretches, just like with human babies. Then you can move the crate downstairs once pup can go through the night reliably. Again, couple of nights on the camp bed next to pup in new location then you should be good leave them overnight downstairs. It is not a quick or "cry it out" process, sorry!

As for the runs, it is quite normal when they move from the litter with the stress of moving. Have you kept puppy on same food as the breeder? It's always recommended to do this for a good few weeks whilst puppy settles in.

The fact that she never chooses to go into it tells you he finds it stressful, and it’s likely stress that’s causing the toileting @Mumma2Ro

it sounds like you literally just use it to lock her in when you leave her? From her point of view it’s the place you put her when you abandon her So in what way do you think you’re training her to positively engage with the crate as a safe space? You aren’t
it’s a punishment.

you need to read about setting up a crate to be a safe space and giving her time-occupying treats in there whilst you’re around. You should sit by the crate and encourage her to use it. It needs to be a secure place where good things happen.

when you’ve made that association strongly, then you can leave her in her safe space/crate and she should be relaxed.

if you’re not careful you are going to create separation-related behaviours in her by locking her in a crate she finds so distressing that she poos

Good advice

incorrect, puppies associate crates with whatever emotion they experience in there - for some it’s a sense of safety and comfort and a rewarding treat, for others it’s a precursor to the distress if being abandoned by their family in a space where nothing good happens.

you might be able to define anthropomorphism but you clearly know bugger all about learning

Hi OP I have an 11 week old retriever puppy who we are crate training, it’s going well but it helps massively that her breeder introduced the litter to a crate with the door open very early on.
She has most of her meals in there and we try and make it nice and cosy for her with toys etc.
All my dogs over the years have been crate trained, if you look up the easy, Peasy , puppy squeazy book there’s lots of tips in there for crate training.
The first week I slept downstairs, next to her crate so she could see/smell/hear me. During the second week I slowly started to go upstairs to bed for a couple of hours per night and extended this time gradually, this week I’m able to go to bed at her bedtime.

Shes fed 4 times a day, 7,12,5 and 10, she’s let out for a wee at 10.30, initially I was setting my alarm to get her up at 12.30, then 3 and then getting up at 6. Now she can go from 10.30-3/3.30 and then up at 7. She’s remained clean and dry at night.

Re the school run is there anyway you can take her with you? Excellent for socialising and wears them out!

She only 9 weeks sound like you didn't do enough research before getting a puppy. You should be taking her out every 2/3 hours day and night.

Only if the crate is used incorrectly. Thanks for the personal attack, it’s so unnecessary.

I’ve never crated a dog and don’t see the point of it at all. They’re family animals and need to be within a group or feel part of a group at least. I expect she’s doing it because it’s causing her distress… why are you using a crate? She should be fine to sleep in a basket. Dogs don’t tear your house up overnight. A contented dog will sleep happily in a basket in the same place on a regular basis.

I really don’t understand why you’re using one from your posts. Why can’t she be left in a room or accompany you where possible? She is finding it distressing and I expect this will give her some serious problems if you carry on. She’s not a Guinea pig just let her be with a bed or rug that she knows is hers in the same spot. That’s enough for a dog x

We had a crate placed in a playpen. The door of the crate wasn’t closed and the area outside was lined with newspaper etc, so she had somewhere to aim for. She never messed in her crate. Also she wouldn’t have gone through the night at that age. I can’t remember the exact age but when she started going through most of the night. I’d hear her and come down at about 4 or 5 am to let her out, and then doze on the sofa until time to wake the dc. That period seemed to go on forever but really wasn’t too long. She always preferred to toilet outside if possible and tried very hard. As her bladder/bowels developed she eventually was able to go through the night with no problem.

At 9 weeks your puppy is still such a baby.