What do I do about our dog?

[steppemum]

Sorry, this will be long.
We have a rescue dog. This is not our first rescue, and we've had him about 1.5 years.
His history is that he was adopted as a puppy in a family with other dogs and they picked on him so at 8 months he was adopted by an older couple. They did lots of training etc and loved him to bits but he was too big and too strong for them so they couldn't walk him, and put him up for rehoming through a local rescue. We met them and him at their house, they were very frank about his quirks.
He is quirky, lots of things, eg he is an escape artist, he climbed over our 5 foot wall, and now we have chicken wire fence on top of that. He is a terrible food thief so we have everything under lock and key. He can open doors and then open drawers (he got into an easter egg stash this way) so now kids bedroom doors have bolts on outside etc etc. We can live with all that.

Many of the quirks he came with were down to being underexercised and bored. Now that he is exercised for 2 hours a day he is mostly calm, friendly and chill.
Mostly.
I shoudl saw he is big, 30kgs and like a huge polar bear.

The one thing we have had to work very hard on is that he reacts to other dogs. When on a lead if he saw a dog even the other side of the field he would go nuts, barking, growling and lea[ing and flipping on the lead. In the first few weeks I got nipped several times while he was doing this.
After a year of training he mostly walks calmly past other dogs (although I always step off the path, he cannot pass in close space face to face) and even when he reacts it is more bounce and bark, and not with that aggressive edge it had in the beginning.

he also now has a lot of doggy friends, gentle intorductions and once he know a dog he stops reacting and loves 10 minutes off lead running with them (obviously in a safe space)

He does resource guard, once he has something high value (eg the plastic tray from meat), we do not try to get it off him, we always exchange it for a treat.

He has always been fine with people and kids, that is a deal breaker for me. We have a lot of people who come to our house, including kids that I teach. So any dog here has to be safe around kids.
We have had a string of incidents recently and now I don't trust him. I don't know what to do.
Incidents are:

-One of our kids (aged 15 and 18) walks into the lounge and he starts growling angrily, we reassure him and calm him down then he is fine. This has happened about 3 times. I should say that the 18 year old is his closest family member and he often sleeps on their bed.
-Two weeks ago, he nipped one of my students. This came out of the blue and really shocked all of us. the student adores him and plays with him when he arrives, dog then lies down on the floor while we have a lesson. Dog was asleep, student leant down and stroked his back, dog was starlted, and jumped up and nipped my student. No broken skin, but he and I was very shocked. I now have to put him out of the room with students as I cannot risk that happening again. -this weekend we have a visiting dog. He knows this dog well, we often walk her, they play together and she has been to stay before. He attacked he on Friday night, no injuries, but she was terrfied. Situation was I had been out and came home, both dogs came to say hello and he turned on her. We have had them with one of us every minute since. They slowly made friends again and have had 2 lovely walks together playing well. Then last night she walked into the lounge and he went for her again.
-this morning he was in my room. My dd wandered in and he started angry growling. As I walked over he started to fly towards her, fortunately she had the door handle in her hand and slammed the door quickly before she could reach him.

I don't know what to do.
I took him on warts and all, and I was prepared to put up with the quirks. But it seems like int he last 2-3 weeks he has become a dog I can't risk having in the house.

advice please
PS. I am now going out for a few hours, so won't answer questions til after lunch.x

You need to take him to see a vet. Dogs hide pain incredibly well and it often shows itself via behavioural changes.

Sound really scary. I don’t think you have a choice once you’ve had him checked out for pain as the pp above suggests.

Definitely get him checked out at the vets. This doesn’t sound like a “quirk”, it’s new behaviour.

Apart from the student touching him when he was sleeping the rest seem out of nowhere. I wonder if he’s started to see you as a resource and is guarding you by keeping everything else away?

Obvious first thing is Vet - as pp said dogs hide pain. Sounds like he is ramping up resource guarding to include the space he is in, did you seek professional help with the resource guarding? The nipping the student when he was startled awake though is a totally normal reaction and absolutely the fault of the situation he was put in - no one should touch a sleeping dog.

If the vet says that everything is OK, then you know what you have to do. This is a potentially dangerous dog- you have to PTS.

Could you afford to get a dog psychologist in? We had a dog who was aggressive and tended to resource-guard. He was never exactly easy but we could manage him after this bloke gave us some advice.

I would get him checked for any pain issues, but a couple of the incidents sounds like he is resource guarding you. The visiting dog and him both coming to say hello to you and then he went for her, and your dd coming into your room and he flew at her. The student thing was the students fault as your dog was asleep. One thing I have always told my kids is if the dog is asleep you don't touch them.

This would be my thoughts too.

Startled awake, that’s the student’s fault and they should know better. (You also should make sure no one approaches a sleeping dog.)

Everything else sounds like resource guarding, and that is a hard fix.

Agree, time to see a vet - he could be hiding pain. My girl is on long term metacam and it's helped her a lot. We think it's arthritis in her hips. She's aged 8 now and been on it a couple of years.

Sudden changes like this is a vet issue.

He sounds very like my rescue with a very similar background but you are further down the line than we are..we have only had him 4 months and we are still at the psychotic going ballistic flipping himself over at the sight of another dog phase... I walk him in a muzzle so he doesn't get me in his anxiety. It's getting better but its slow. I think if mine started doing what yours is I would start with vet, then get a good behaviourist in. While doing this I would have a very low threshold for having him a well fitted muzzle (the muzzle shop gives fabulous advice) and avoid any triggers, use crates / dog gates etc to keep everyone safe. It sounds like all his previous behaviours were maybe as he is getting more confident he is getting more protective but still doesn't understand how to react. Mine never learned how to be a dog through lack of socialisation and always reverts to wolf / breed instinct at times of stress.

I skipped some of the detail but your student should not have stroked him when he was asleep. That is not the dog's fault. I'm always surprised when this comes up.

Yes, don’t stroke a sleeping dog. Also listen to a growl. If a dog growls it’s telling you something, listen.

Dog is trying to not bite, and warning you with a growl
https://www.chelmsforddogassociation.org/ufaqs/ladder-of-aggression/

Thanks all.

I know growling is the precursor to more agression.
Each time he has growled (eg when dds walk into the lounge) we have got them to step back and then reassure until he has settled then they can come in.
he will growl when resource guarding and we take it as a warning.
But with both attacks on the dog he went from nothing to launching across the room in one move.
With dd in my bedroom this morning. She stopped as soon as he started growling, but he didn't stop.

The sleeping dog thing.
I know and understand that you don't stroke a sleeping dog and that he was startled. In normal cricumstances you would say don't disturb. It is a bit hard with him though. He is always lying flat out, and when someone he likes is there is lies flat out by their feet, and waits for scratches and strokes, most of the time isn't asleep. He doesn't use a bed and just stretches out right across the floor.
I think neither of us had realised that he had gone from lying chilling next to us, which is his default position, and what he does all the time, to fast asleep.
Now I will not let anyone touch him at all, and prefer him out of the room, but that is really hard due to layout.

I think you are probably right about him resource guarding me.
That is going to be impossible.
He can't be crated, we were warned when we got him that he hates crates. He doesn't like being behind a closed door, when everyone else is the other side, he will scratch and scratch at the door to get through. Although we have taught he to be shut behind a door and wait for a short time, eg when the shopping arrives at the front door.
When we need to separate eg with my students, he can go where dh is working in another room, and he is fine because with dh. But if dh is not home, it is a challenge.
(he can be left alone if we go out, just if we are in he wants to be where we are)

He has such a lovely side, he is all cuddles and fluff. He comes and sits on your lap (!) if you sit on the floor. He has a soft gentle mouth when taking treats.
He isn't really attached to me: dd1, dh and I are all 'his people' but he has growled at dd1. It is so frustrating.

and yes, vet visit next week

Is he a livestock guardian breed? Thats rough, because the resource guarding to include spaces and living things will be deeply instinctual, you probably need a breed specific behaviourist.

hmm, he is a mixed breed but a large dollop of livestock guardian, yes.

I wonder if it is partly because he is now so comfortable and safe with us that his true nature is able to come out?

Agree with this absolutely.

Can I also ask when you say you reassure the dog when he growls what do you mean by this? As if you are stroking him etc it will be seen by him to be a reward and so is therefore more likely to be repeated. Does that make sense?

good point.
Mostly verbally. When he was very reactive to other dogs I realised that if I spoke in a calm laid back way he calmed down as he realised I wasn't threatened and so he didn't need to be.

So I call him by name and get him to look at me. That breaks his fix on whoever he is growling at, and then he relaxes.

It definitely sounds like she’s guarding you. We’ve got a collie and she gets cross with other dogs if they greet me first when I go to pick her up from daycare for example. She’s also more nervous of new people when I’m there, I think she feels the need to protect me. (Less so with my husband funnily enough). However she doesn’t guard objects/toys/spaces/the sofa. I wouldn’t have a resource guarding dog sleeping on the bed of someone that they’re randomly growling at. It sounds worryingly like an Accident waiting to happen.

Our dog’s not keen on strangers so we have various stair gates in the downstairs to shut areas off if DS has friends round or we have visitors. Just much less stressful all round if she is kept separate from them. Funnily enough she barks a couple of times when they come in, and then is happy to ignore them as she can see them though the gate so just potters outside or in the kitchen.

Thanks.
yes I think won't let him on her bed.
To be fair she has had her door shut a lot recently so he hasn't done it so much.

he is fine with visitors (human) once he has said hello.
which is why I don't understand him randomly growling at dds.
They aren't visitors!

Lots of serious conversations happening in our house tonight.
dd2 is now scared of him and doesn't want to be in the same room.
Which I understand, but that isn't a long term possibility.

Visiting dog has gone home, so I think he'll settle down for the moment.
Vert visit booked.

Vet sounds like an excellent idea. It’s really hard isn’t it, because being nervous around a dog makes them more nervous and it is a vicious circle.

We had a nipping incident when DCollie was about 7 months old when we had misread her signals and since then I have been absolutely militant in ensuring that she never has the opportunity to repeat that behaviour. So I don’t let her anywhere near DS’s friends unless she’s behind a gate, it’s not worth the risk. She has never growled at any of the three of us who live in the house though, and I have to say I would struggle to get past that and trust her again.

I think the thing that has shaken us all up is that he flew towards dd this morning. If she hadn't shut the door, I am not sure what he would have done.

interestingly, when he flew at the visiting dog growling and sounding very aggressive, he pinned her down on the floor, still growling etc.
But she was not marked in any way, so he didn't actually bite.
I had to drag him off and he had her head in his mouth, but not a mark on her.

I am not sure if that makes me feel any better though!

Livestock guarding breeds are tricky. They’re just doing what they’ve been selectively bred for over many generations. You can manage innate traits but not get rid of them. They are some of the most difficult to manage and I can’t imagine having them with children.

You need experienced behavioural help after the vet check if you want to proceed. It’s impossible to tell the reason without a long assessment - fear, guarding (‘which is fear based) - you need very specialised assistance. I’m fiercely pro rescue and have had dogs with aggression issues…but not with children. That’s a whole other thing.