What do I do about our dog?

[steppemum]

Sorry, this will be long.
We have a rescue dog. This is not our first rescue, and we've had him about 1.5 years.
His history is that he was adopted as a puppy in a family with other dogs and they picked on him so at 8 months he was adopted by an older couple. They did lots of training etc and loved him to bits but he was too big and too strong for them so they couldn't walk him, and put him up for rehoming through a local rescue. We met them and him at their house, they were very frank about his quirks.
He is quirky, lots of things, eg he is an escape artist, he climbed over our 5 foot wall, and now we have chicken wire fence on top of that. He is a terrible food thief so we have everything under lock and key. He can open doors and then open drawers (he got into an easter egg stash this way) so now kids bedroom doors have bolts on outside etc etc. We can live with all that.

Many of the quirks he came with were down to being underexercised and bored. Now that he is exercised for 2 hours a day he is mostly calm, friendly and chill.
Mostly.
I shoudl saw he is big, 30kgs and like a huge polar bear.

The one thing we have had to work very hard on is that he reacts to other dogs. When on a lead if he saw a dog even the other side of the field he would go nuts, barking, growling and lea[ing and flipping on the lead. In the first few weeks I got nipped several times while he was doing this.
After a year of training he mostly walks calmly past other dogs (although I always step off the path, he cannot pass in close space face to face) and even when he reacts it is more bounce and bark, and not with that aggressive edge it had in the beginning.

he also now has a lot of doggy friends, gentle intorductions and once he know a dog he stops reacting and loves 10 minutes off lead running with them (obviously in a safe space)

He does resource guard, once he has something high value (eg the plastic tray from meat), we do not try to get it off him, we always exchange it for a treat.

He has always been fine with people and kids, that is a deal breaker for me. We have a lot of people who come to our house, including kids that I teach. So any dog here has to be safe around kids.
We have had a string of incidents recently and now I don't trust him. I don't know what to do.
Incidents are:

-One of our kids (aged 15 and 18) walks into the lounge and he starts growling angrily, we reassure him and calm him down then he is fine. This has happened about 3 times. I should say that the 18 year old is his closest family member and he often sleeps on their bed.
-Two weeks ago, he nipped one of my students. This came out of the blue and really shocked all of us. the student adores him and plays with him when he arrives, dog then lies down on the floor while we have a lesson. Dog was asleep, student leant down and stroked his back, dog was starlted, and jumped up and nipped my student. No broken skin, but he and I was very shocked. I now have to put him out of the room with students as I cannot risk that happening again. -this weekend we have a visiting dog. He knows this dog well, we often walk her, they play together and she has been to stay before. He attacked he on Friday night, no injuries, but she was terrfied. Situation was I had been out and came home, both dogs came to say hello and he turned on her. We have had them with one of us every minute since. They slowly made friends again and have had 2 lovely walks together playing well. Then last night she walked into the lounge and he went for her again.
-this morning he was in my room. My dd wandered in and he started angry growling. As I walked over he started to fly towards her, fortunately she had the door handle in her hand and slammed the door quickly before she could reach him.

I don't know what to do.
I took him on warts and all, and I was prepared to put up with the quirks. But it seems like int he last 2-3 weeks he has become a dog I can't risk having in the house.

advice please
PS. I am now going out for a few hours, so won't answer questions til after lunch.x

A friend of mine had a Bulgarian Shepherd dog - he was also a rescue. After 2 years he started almost identical behaviour, vet visits showed nothing untoward, this behaviour went on for about 12 months, she was trying positive training ... until one day he attacked her as she entered the living room, he diced her up,litrally, she spent 2 months in hospital. Obviously he was PTS.
It was his breed instinct kicking in, guarding his surroundings and his 'flock' her 2 pet cats!

If all these incidents - bar the student, which sounds like a different issue, startled awake - have occurred this weekend with the visiting dog, then I think he’s got over his threshold (trigger stacking) and you probably can’t have other dogs to stay or visit.

My mild-mannered rescue cross is generally fine with other dogs in her space, but I am aware that she actually would prefer to be the one and only so visits are generally not overnight. I probably wouldn’t ever offer to dogsit for anyone in my home. There was one time she reacted as you describe (pinned a smaller dog down, very upsetting but all noise no teeth) and it was food-related, he tried to take a chew off her. So, resource guarding. I can imagine that if she’d had her triggers stacked over a few days it could be an issue. And she’s mild-mannered, as I say. (She’s also similar in that she won’t be shut behind closed doors if we’re in the house, but fine if we go out.)

That is exactly what I am afraid of.

I do think that he was pushed out of his comfort zone by the visiting dog, and we obviously won't do that again. But some of the growling when people entered the room was before that. Started a few weeks ago.

I am looking at him sprawled out at my feet, great soft friendly lump who wants tummy rubs and it is so hard to reconcile that with the dog that in that moment flew at dd.

Even if we got a trainer in etc, I am not sure that I feel comfortable with him if he can potentially do that. And my kids are teens and dog savy. But with visiting kids....
We are having a BBQ next Monday with about 10 kids, all under 10, and I am going to make arrangements for him to go and visit my friend for the afternoon. He has done that before. I don't want him round those little kids, and then I am thinking that is not sustainable long term at all.

I will have to contact the rescue we adopted him through. Technically he remains theirs. I think they will want to rehome him. That worries me too.
What a mess.

I've just caught up with this thread and seen he's part livestock guardian.

Personally I think it's incredibly irresponsible of rescues to place these kinds of dogs into normal family homes. They are not your average pets and need a huge amount of experience and knowledge.

They shouldn't be spending their lobed cooped up in family homes - they are bred to live outdoors and in many cases, to kill bears and lions - they are not pets.

Hmm, I think you sound like a very good dog owner. You have worked hard, done all the right things regarding training etc. The student issue has been covered, although even asleep isn't a great response from the dog (he was already in her space, ifyswim). Lunging at your dd would have me taking him to the vet to be pts, unfortunately. I've seen too many dog bite injuries to risk it. He has been castrated, hasn't he?

Vet and then the rescue. When we rescued our girl she’d growl at everyone who came near me including dh & dcs. She’s eventually settled but yours is new behaviour that you can’t ignore.

I agree. I think it’s so sad for well meaning adopters to be duped into the fact these can be pets with a bit of work. They’re not. Like the majority of imported dog and puppies. It’s management not dog ownership.

I would largely agree with this. Livestock guardians are just that, with behaviours bred into them for literally millennia. I suspect that they can be well-socialised if you get in there early enough but starting socialisation late with any dog is going to be hard to fix and especially so with one with deep guarding instincts.

I'm so sorry that you are having to deal with this. The snapping on being woken isn't great (I wouldn't expect a stable dog to do this when asleep by someone's feet - disturbing them in their own bed is a bit different) but the flying teeth out at people he knows is downright dangerous. I hope your vet has some answers for you.

I should say that we knew his whole history before we took him. He was being rehomed by an older couple who couldn't deal with his size and so weren't walking him. We knew that he was reactive to other dogs on the lead (but liked playing with dogs off lead) but no history of problems with people.
He was 2.5 when we took him.
I am very pro rescue and prepared to put in the training and deal with a rescues little moments. We fostered before we adopted our first dog.
But I would never take on an aggressive dog, and I generally feel that aggressive dogs should be pts and not rehomed.

But, hands up, I didn't do any research on livestock guardian breeds. (maybe because he is mixed breed, maybe because he was already a family home dog) taht is my fault.
He does got 2 hours walking a dog, and spends the rest of the day flat out on the floor!
So many of the Romanian dogs being brought over and rehomed are livestock breeds. This is yet another reason why they should not be allowed to import these dogs.

Thanks for all your advice. Vet booked for tomorrow morning.

he does get 2 hours walking a day

It's not your fault @steppemum - it's the fault of the rescues importing these dogs and trying to pass them off as family pets. They are not pets.

They are bred to live outdoors with their "flock" - sheep or cattle mainly - out in the mountains or in very rural villages. They're bred to show aggression to fight off predators and some breeds will fight to the death to defend their flock. They spend their days watching their flock, keeping away predators and roaming their territory. Some of these dogs could easily bring down and kill a mountain lion or a wolf.

Unfortunately all that means they're generally completely unsuited to living as pets in the UK and rescues shouldn't be importing them and allowing them to be adopted here.

You can't socialise or train out their genetic instincts to guard and defend. It's like trying to stop a collie from herding or a beagle from catching a scent. It's impossible.

And while that's a great amount for your average domestic dog, it's just not what a livestock guardian needs. They need to be living outdoors, roaming their territory and protecting their animals - not walking for two hours and then sleeping in a house.

Again, that's not your fault, so please don't beat yourself up.

This

I had a reactive dog pts a few years ago. Also a herding breed.

I think there were things we missed but honestly looking back he was an anxious and unhappy dog.

We tried EVERYTHING.

No stone was left unturned. We also gave everything a proper chance to work too.

All the meds and behavioural advice couldn't change the fact he wasn't safe to have as a pet.

After he was pts we realised how small our world had become with allowing friends over, going for walks etc. it was miserable for us all.

I wouldn't do it all again. Id call time much sooner Although my husband disagrees.

I also think the rescue are deluded if they want to take him back with the potential of rehoming. To who? Where?

There aren't people crying out for a potentially unsafe dog with questionable history when they can easily go and buy a puppy with no bite history.

I am saying this all with sympathy and compassion. It stinks. I hope you find some answers so you can get some harmony in your home again

I say this very regretfully, but with the escalating behaviour and the breed - this is serious and you're right to be worried, OP.

First thing's first - vet check.

If he does get the all clear, my second step would be the dog being returned to the rescue for re-homing, to a large rural property with no children.

Failing that, then PTS.

Again I only say that with a heavy heart. I have a lot of personal and professional experience with these types of dogs (among others!) And sadly the behaviour you're describing is so concerning.

He's not a happy lad and the risk of harm is huge. You've done incredibly well but these dogs are NOT suited to family life.

The thing that is so hard is that right now I have a big, soppy, soft loon lying on my feet.
He has just been on a walk, and played with dog friends, lovely walk on a nice evening, no reactivity (although some of that is because we make loops so we don't go face to face with other dogs.)

To all intents and purposes he is a beautiful, (and he is beautiful, one of the prettiest dogs I have ever seen) big, gentle giant of a dog.

99% of the time.

But when he goes, it is quick as lightning.

dh and I were talking at lunchtime. It is that flash of instinct and he just goes.
Sometimes I can see it coming. As in sometimes I can see he isn't relaxed, or he is on alert, or he tenses his shoulders (he does this when he is resource guarding food) and so we leave him alone, or do something to calm him down.
But other times there is no warning.

The rest of the time he is calm and chill and a lovely dog to have around.
It just seems so extreme to pts, but I can't have him here with kids.

Vet is tomorrow morning.
I am almost hoping that they find he has some terminal illness. Then we can love him and he can go in peace for a decent reason. Does that sound mad?

the sad thing is that all the training we have put in has worked, he can now be walked, he is a different dog to when we got him, but the flip side of that is that he walks calmly with us because he trusts us, and that also means he now is guarding us more and more.

I wouldn't send him back to the rescue. They are just going to rehome him to another family possibly with less experience and commitment than the OP. And something bad will happen.

I get where you are coming from in regards to hoping they find something so the choice is out of your hands.
I honestly. Think the vet visit will produce all clear, I do think it's his breed traits. Livestock Gaurdians are sadly bred to guard and they will, they are bred to fight off wolves and wild boar... that trait is sadly deep rooted within them. As extreme as PTS seems, from my first hand past experience and regards to breed I think it'd be the best. Ive had dogs 30yrs, all rescues Inc a little Whippet who used to love trying to nip folk who came to the house in the first 6 months, he stayed 12 years and was no bother after been trained out of it but guarding instinct wasn't in his genes and his size was nothing much to fear. Had he had been a livestock gaudian and a powerful one at that - I wouldn't have thought twice about letting him pts not only to protect others but also to protect him from been shoved pillar to post, punished in inhumane ways, ending up pounded ect. Good luck you sound like an amazing owner but your kids will always come first.

From your posts it's completely evident you're an experienced, devoted owner and he's been so lucky to have you.

It's incredibly hard when you have a sensitive/reactive dog because you put so many things in place to keep them happy and under threshold, but then sometimes you can lose sight of what is actually realistic to live with, and indeed, safe.

my problem is that when you adopt from a rescue you have to sign to say that you won't rehome you will return to them.
Same for pts.

Our previous rescue we didn't bother contacting the rescue as he was ill and we had to pts to put him out of pain.
But this I htink would be different.

I really feel for you OP, this is a tragic situation but this dog can not stay in your environment.

I have a dog who was capable of similar, but a cocker spaniel so much smaller and less likely to cause serious injury. And 99.99% of the time he is, like yours, brilliant company and the most loving and affectionate dog I have ever had. But he is capable of turning in an instant if the circumstances are right...and triggers accumulate as you know, and you can't always see how everything is combining together to precipitate that explosion. Resource guarding, tiredness, entry of a person into location he is already occupying, entry by specific person who is already nervous and likely to trigger his instinct more, etc etc, it just needs the perfect storm for it all to go horribly wrong and you have children and students coming to your house.

I have persisted because I have an adult only household, I have had success with meds and training, and have had no incidents in 2.5 years now...but 'my world is much smaller ' as another poster put it...everything I do is with an eye on managing him appropriately and with the awareness that even though nothing has happened in such a long time, it potentially still might. It's a very hard way to live at times, a big responsibility, and I really don't think I would do it if I had children. My dog goes to kennels who know him well if I am am taking holidays with family who have kids, or they are staying at mine.

In your context you just can't afford to do any of this, you have a responsibility to your family.

Speak to the shelter and see what they say...it is possible that in a very specific set up with owners (with no kids) with experience in these areas who can manage appropriately, but I think there are limited suitable contexts for him. Although it is certainly good news that he is showing capacity for bite inhibition.

Please ensure he is muzzled before the vet tomorrow and that you explain his behaviours before he is examined because dogs with guarding behaviours can be reactive when being handled on these occasions.

You sound amazing and this must be heartbreaking for you especially after all the energy you've put in.

I'd be ensuring he's not in a room with any of the kids until this is sorted out one way or another.

If she hadn't shut the door, I am not sure what he would have done.
You can't give this the chance to happen again.

hmm, he is a mixed breed but a large dollop of livestock guardian, yes

This makes a huge difference imo. You can’t breed the herding out of a Border Collie, or the prey drive out of a sight hound. So you can’t expect to breed the guarding out of a guardian breed. He sounds almost confused as to who his ‘flock’ are. You have people - and dogs - coming and going. That’s hard for a guardian breed to deal with, and they will need a very strong example from their primary focus human to know who/what is ok to welcome in to the home and who isn’t. No offence OP, as I know you have rescued him and are doing your best for a dog you clearly care for, but I have long thought that Guardian breed should never be allowed to be mere ‘pets’. It is totally unfair on them. In fact there are many breeds I think should not be allowed to be pets, problems arise that need a an absolute volte face from (in some cases) hundreds of years of behaviours instilled from selective breeding. At the very worst you probably now need a breed expert to try to help you and your dog.

I don't really understand why you don't know what to do.
You're a sensible person and you know this dog well. You've done the best you can with him.
He initially improved but now is getting worse, not better; he's quick and powerful and he has bitten a number of people.
Your adult daughter is afraid of him and rightfully so. She should not have to live with him.
He was placed with you by a "rescue" organisation who are clearly lacking in judgment, so returning him to them is going to result in one of two things: he will be rehomed to a new household of people who don't know him and he will bite someone there (because why would they be any better than you?); or they will assess him, decide he is unmanageable and euthanize him. In either case he will experience considerable stress and probably cause bloodshed.
Even if your vet finds that he has some source of pain, and can at best partially alleviate it, how can you trust him? There are millions of dogs walking about with arthritis and other uncomfortable problems, but they are not sinking their teeth into people.
Own it, buy him a bucket of KFC, give him a cuddle and have him put to sleep.