What do I do about our dog?

[steppemum]

Sorry, this will be long.
We have a rescue dog. This is not our first rescue, and we've had him about 1.5 years.
His history is that he was adopted as a puppy in a family with other dogs and they picked on him so at 8 months he was adopted by an older couple. They did lots of training etc and loved him to bits but he was too big and too strong for them so they couldn't walk him, and put him up for rehoming through a local rescue. We met them and him at their house, they were very frank about his quirks.
He is quirky, lots of things, eg he is an escape artist, he climbed over our 5 foot wall, and now we have chicken wire fence on top of that. He is a terrible food thief so we have everything under lock and key. He can open doors and then open drawers (he got into an easter egg stash this way) so now kids bedroom doors have bolts on outside etc etc. We can live with all that.

Many of the quirks he came with were down to being underexercised and bored. Now that he is exercised for 2 hours a day he is mostly calm, friendly and chill.
Mostly.
I shoudl saw he is big, 30kgs and like a huge polar bear.

The one thing we have had to work very hard on is that he reacts to other dogs. When on a lead if he saw a dog even the other side of the field he would go nuts, barking, growling and lea[ing and flipping on the lead. In the first few weeks I got nipped several times while he was doing this.
After a year of training he mostly walks calmly past other dogs (although I always step off the path, he cannot pass in close space face to face) and even when he reacts it is more bounce and bark, and not with that aggressive edge it had in the beginning.

he also now has a lot of doggy friends, gentle intorductions and once he know a dog he stops reacting and loves 10 minutes off lead running with them (obviously in a safe space)

He does resource guard, once he has something high value (eg the plastic tray from meat), we do not try to get it off him, we always exchange it for a treat.

He has always been fine with people and kids, that is a deal breaker for me. We have a lot of people who come to our house, including kids that I teach. So any dog here has to be safe around kids.
We have had a string of incidents recently and now I don't trust him. I don't know what to do.
Incidents are:

-One of our kids (aged 15 and 18) walks into the lounge and he starts growling angrily, we reassure him and calm him down then he is fine. This has happened about 3 times. I should say that the 18 year old is his closest family member and he often sleeps on their bed.
-Two weeks ago, he nipped one of my students. This came out of the blue and really shocked all of us. the student adores him and plays with him when he arrives, dog then lies down on the floor while we have a lesson. Dog was asleep, student leant down and stroked his back, dog was starlted, and jumped up and nipped my student. No broken skin, but he and I was very shocked. I now have to put him out of the room with students as I cannot risk that happening again. -this weekend we have a visiting dog. He knows this dog well, we often walk her, they play together and she has been to stay before. He attacked he on Friday night, no injuries, but she was terrfied. Situation was I had been out and came home, both dogs came to say hello and he turned on her. We have had them with one of us every minute since. They slowly made friends again and have had 2 lovely walks together playing well. Then last night she walked into the lounge and he went for her again.
-this morning he was in my room. My dd wandered in and he started angry growling. As I walked over he started to fly towards her, fortunately she had the door handle in her hand and slammed the door quickly before she could reach him.

I don't know what to do.
I took him on warts and all, and I was prepared to put up with the quirks. But it seems like int he last 2-3 weeks he has become a dog I can't risk having in the house.

advice please
PS. I am now going out for a few hours, so won't answer questions til after lunch.x

Best of luck tomorrow op x

I suspect I have a similar kind of dog and I am finding this thread really upsetting.
My dog is (probably) a mioritic sheepdog. He is about 30kg and a handsome white fluffy thing. He was rescued from a reputable U.K. charity ie we did not import him. He was here already when we adopted him at about 6 months old.
My dog is big and bouncy and he does alert bark (loudly) at the door and at noises in the garden but he is super friendly with people, once it is clear we have invited them, and with other dogs. Any issues we’ve had with him are typical stuff like poor recall, pulling on lead, jumping up, chewing stuff etc and are no worse than lots of people have with adolescent labs and goldies. He is reactive to motorbikes and he will chase cats but that’s about it. He steals stuff for fun sometimes but he will swop it out for a treat and he isn’t keen to get off the sofa if he’s comfy there but his resistance will usually just involve lumpen immobility.
Yes it’s a flock guardian breed but I don’t think that he’s significantly more problematic to own than many other breeds that people commonly keep as pets eg GSD, Doberman, Staffy.
Theres a whole Facebook group of people happily owning and loving their Mioritic shepherd dogs and despite the hyperbole on this thread I have never actually seen a report of anyone being mauled by one.
The breed info I have read suggest they are not completely unsuitable as pets as long as they are exercised and trained as they are usually good with people including kids and very loyal to the people in their household. Nor do they typically need more than 2hrs exercise. Lots of people on the Facebook group say their Mioritics are actually rather lazy. I think flock guarding in fact involves quite a lot of lying down and a whole lot more barking than biting.
I don’t see people on Mumsnet suggesting that other posters feed their resource guarding cocker spaniel a KFC and put it down straight away without considering other options. Or saying that no-one should ever own a GSD as a pet.
Even though this dog is not right for OPs home because there are a lot of people coming and going surely the dog can be rehomed to an adult only home. I can see no justification for the dog to be put down straight away in contravention of the agreement with the rescue. Nor can I see any reason to suggest the charity is irresponsible. This is new behaviour. The rescue were honest with OP about the known behaviour and placed the dog in an experienced home with older kids.
If, after the vet check, OP decides she can’t keep the dog she should give it back to the rescue centre as she’s agreed to do.

What an awful position to be in but you can’t say you haven’t tried. It does sound like its escalating.

I'm sorry you've found some of the responses upsetting @Freudulent.

I don’t see people on Mumsnet suggesting that other posters feed their resource guarding cocker spaniel a KFC and put it down straight away without considering other options. Or saying that no-one should ever own a GSD as a pet.

But this ^^ does happen. On a regular basis.

Most posters on here believe that dogs who are aggressive towards people should be PTS, regardless of their breed. Many of us will also say that breeds like GSD's or Dobermans or huskies are not really suitable pets for the vast majority of people.

That doesn't mean that some people can't make it work - of course they can - just like some people successfully own livestock guardians - but that doesn't mean they make suitable pets for the vast majority of people.

OP is describing a dog who has bitten on multiple occasions, guards its' family and that may well have attacked her daughter if she hadn't shut the door on it in time - that's not a dog that's safe to be around and any rescue that takes it back and tries to rehome it would be being incredibly irresponsible.

This isn't a dog who has bitten because someone has failed to manage resource guarding, or because a child has been allowed to poke it while sleeping - this is a dog who is flying across the room at grown adults and who, due to its breed, could easily take one down and kill them.

I'm with those who think that, unless the vet finds something, this dog should be PTS - and as @villainousbroodmare said above, even then, you have to consider that a lot of dogs live with pain and don't become aggressive. I don't think he is suitable for rehoming. He is a big dog and while a failure of management with a cocker spaniel might result in a nasty bite, a big dog like this could seriously maul or even kill someone. I wouldn't want that on my conscience.

Someone upthread suggested he be rehomed to 'a large rural property', but please, no. I see it way too often on rehoming adverts, that a dog who clearly has quite a history of aggression, needs a muzzle on walks etc, is suitable for a 'rural home'. An aggressive dog would be less of an issue in a rural area than in a busy park, because there are fewer people and other dogs around - but that dog is still just as dangerous to the people and dogs that it will encounter, unless it doesn't see any because it is kept solely on site at its new home and never gets out, and never gets a chance at the postie, visitors and so on.

Freudulent

your description is our dog exactly, and same breed.

and he hasn't bitten several people. He has growled at several people, which we are taking seriously because as pp have said it is a precursor to more.

The worrying incident is him flying across the room at dd.

On Monday, after our visiting dog had left (Sun night) I watched him 'de-escalate' It was interesting to realise that as the day went on he relaxed more and more and went back to himself. He stopped guarding us in effect.
It made me realise just how stressed he was with the visiting dog and what a bad decision it was on my part (even though she has been her overnight before).

It was this weekend with the incident with dd that has made me concerned. (The nip to my student was shocking, but again, he was fast asleep, and I can ensure that students don't touch him.) But the incident with dd was while the visiting dog was in the house, and he was mega stressed.
He has always been fine with new people coming to the house, as long as we introduce him, he says hello and then ignores.
It has never been new people which he reacts to.

So now we are looking at, if we don't put in him in that position of visiting dogs etc, is there enough of a concern.
The simple answer is that I don't know.

The vet was excellent. No obvious source of pain. Vet has put him on pain meds for 3 days, he said if it is pain, then you will see a change of behaviour of some sort in that time (not specifically around the aggression, more general change). He was not optimistic, realistically he doesn't think it is pain.
If, after 3 days there is no change (which we are not expecting) then he suggested a mild anti- anxiety, and to try that for 3/4 weeks to see if he is calmer in that time.
If we feel that there is enough of an improvement, then fine, if not then the best option is pts.

I think we are going to try the meds. Watch very carefully, and see.
I am not making the final decision yet.
I am not keeping him if he is aggressive.
But I am not rushing in to this.

Thank you all so much for all your help and advice.

PS - my 'highly reactive' dog sat in the vet waiting room full of dogs quietly waiting his turn. A year ago we had to wait in the car and go in the back door. Just shows how far he has come.

@steppemum I think whatever the outcome of the medicine trial, you have done such a good job with this dog and it's not your fault. We have a (much smaller) rescue - he's extremely anxious rather than aggressive. The Xanax worked to a degree, but you can also see a behavioural vet and try Prozac. Some of the dogs with aggression issues we know of have been on Prozac and apparently it helps a lot

Normal vets cannot prescribe it though I believe - it has to be a specific behavioural vet

I think that’s a good plan and whatever happen you’ve done the best for him. I’m so sorry you are in this position.

Get the dog checked over by a vet but if nothing is found the behaviour you describe is dangerous. He growled at your dd who he likes. Terrified the other dog, that is friendly towards it. The dog is a ticking timebomb. Once he has savaged someone it will be too late. Also this dog should NEVER be off its lead. I'd be sad but get it PTS, to keep others safe.

I’m really sympathetic to you op and I’m a dog owner myself but I think you need to inform your students or their parents about this. I’d be extremely unhappy if you didn’t disclose this info and I was trusting you with my child. I’m being honest that I would probably withdraw my child from your service if I knew there was an aggressive dog on the premises. Even if you said you would lock him away, accidents do happen and dogs get loose.
I googled the breed and in the first few sentences it says they are not good with people coming into their home and they do guard their family., It also says they can easily take down bears etc it’s not a risk I’d be comfortable taking with other peoples dc never mind my own.

Sorry to hear you're in this upsetting position OP. I agree with the above regarding your students. I think this dog is a bit of a liability for you now.

I personally wouldn't ever be able to relax at home after an incident like that with your daughter. If she hadn't managed to shut the door and he'd bitten her, I assume you would have been off to the vets that dya to have him pts? So, trying not to be mean but the only reason he has been given a reprieve is because the door got shut in time? Just my opinion but he needs putting down. There are hundreds of lovely dogs that need homes without preserving all the dangerous ones.

My DM had a dog many years ago which she persevered with. He ended up launching himself at my brother's gf and her then needing stitches in her lip. My DM has never quite got over the guilt. He was pts straight away but of course by then it was too late. We already knew he was a liability.

You need a behaviourist if the vet finds nothing wrong. Sounds like it's a very busy household, and he is a dog with naturally high arousal levels. It sounds like he needs a long cortisol break and more downtime going forward. Sounds like he's been trigger stacking for a while.

The Facebook page Reactive Dogs Uk has great advice and can recommend a behaviourist.

I would fit him with a Baskerville muzzle. Saved the life of many dogs that would otherwise be PTS

I'm afraid if there is nothing the vet finds then I'd put to sleep. Who knows what he would have happened if your daughter hadn't had the door to close. I'm a little surprised you're asking.

I agree with this too.

You are taking a huge risk allowing students to continue coming into a home with an aggressive dog. All it takes is for someone to forget to shut a door and you could have a serious incident on your hands.

Oh this sounds tough.

We fostered a dog similar to this. Long story short, tried and tried but the first time the air snap turned into a real snap, that was it with kids in the house.

I'm afraid, warning or no warning, patting when asleep or not, the nip to your student should have been your zero tolerance line.

Dogs trust took our foster back and rehomed him with the behaviourist as they recognised he wasn't suitable for a family (and should never have come to us in the first place tbh. He'd already had 2 failed fosters. I thought we could help him as we are v dog experienced).

You are very laid back OP. You keep referring to the soppy dog lying at your feet ... that almost attacked your daughter and actually bit your student. Wake up.

Have you not seen recent deaths in the news? You genuinely took on a mix breed without googling? Ditto previous owners? For goodness sake put the poor dog down and let it be peaceful.

Absolutely agree with coffee's post..any change like this means something is going on and with a largish dog you don't want this to escalate for everyone's sake.

As much as I agree that you should never touch a sleeping dog, it’s not actually normal (or acceptable) for their first instinct to be to bite/nip and it annoys me that MN seem to think it is ok.

I really don't think anyone is saying it's okay.

To touch/disturb a sleeping dog is just a dumb risk that's not worth the worst outcome - being bitten.

You really can't blame a dog for having an instinctive reaction if they're suddenly startled, and it's easy to avoid.

I think you’re a great and reflective owner @steppemum and I really hope your dog does well on the anti-anxiety meds, plus a careful watch for trigger stacking and his environment. You sound like you know exactly what your safe boundaries are and are prepared to act if you don’t feel 100% confident, and you clearly have a good vet. I think that’s all you can realistically be expected to do at the moment. I’m so sorry you’re in this position.

Sleep startle is incredibly common. More so in dogs with a difficult past. Depending what other stressors are present at the time a nip or low level bite can be very normal. It’s why rescues should be very mindful of placing certain dogs in homes with children, vulnerable adults or other animals.

It’s not ok as such but it’s not uncommon and doesn’t denote a dog is a danger.