Dog & Sheep Solutions?

[Baabaabaddog]

Late teen DS has just called me, this evening he was walking the dog in the dark, basically she ran away and chased some sheep.
Son says when he got to her she was chasing a lamb round in circles, playing how she does with dogs. When it laid down, she laid down next to it and licked it.
I’m relieved that she didn’t go to attack it, however I’ve also been involved in livestock / farming / countryside living so am fully aware of the damage this can still do.

I’ve been training her by walking through sheep regularly, and going back and forth past them multiple times so desensitisation. I correct any pulling or interest etc, but not really praising her or doing anything to get her attention other than walking on.
The other thing I do is sit and stay with her near sheep in fields, and stand back, with a long line (very securely!) on.

I wanted to ask for suggestions of what else you would do now?
I know full well she will now be super high alert and this will have put my hours and hours of training backwards!
BTW she’s a Doberman and can spot something moving from half a mile away and she can sniff out any animal in undergrowth.

I have access to a sheep farm. I was thinking of putting her in a pen with quite a few sheep and lambs? On a long line, sit and stay and then walking round. Even feeding her in there. Then back out in the fields and get them to run past her?

Thanks for any advice.

Talk to the farmer.
Ask their advice as they know your dog and you.

Always have your dog penned, on a lead or chained up if you live on a property with livestock or any where near roads or traffic.
Once your dog is fully obedient, you could let him off when in a proper off leash dog park.
I would also think that only when the dog is fully obedient would it be the best time to introduce sheep interaction with any degree of safety. But the farmer would know best.

You sound utterly ridiculous but if you live on a working sheep farm why don't you have a direct conversation with the farmer ... I am sure he/she would love the opportunity to offer their personal advice on your Doberman's behaviour.

So you got a CPH number just to train your dog on two sheep?

How did these two ewes get in lamb?

If you sold the lambs what happened to the sheep?

Honestly I think the short term solution would be DS not being allowed to walk the dog alone for a while - at teen / young adult age he should have known better. If he's unable to handle the situation and make good decisions it's probably best not to allow him to create issues. Perhaps no late night unaccompanied trips for now!

I genuinely (not trying to be a cow!) don't think you'll be able to fully train the prey drive out of the dog. I think definitely more training is needed and perhaps you need to train in a distraction method? A prey to play training? Who else is involved in the dogs training? It's all good that you're so on it, but if the rest of the family aren't all over it too and reinforcing then that's a weak spot for the future.

With our old dogs we'd use the eye contact and getting between them and the distraction and maintaining eye contact until passed a lot, we'd also be on high alert and at any sign of them going into prey mode we'd distract (by a toy, treat, command, eye contact etc). It only works if completely consistent and everyone on board.

There is one sure fire way to keep dog chasing sheep. Works like magic. No real effort involved. Great bit of kit.

It’s called a lead.

Well this is an interesting MN thread!

OP I own sheep and dogs. Working collies and wcs and labs.

Your idea of getting your dog comfortable around sheep is a good idea

My views would be that the method you suggest may mean that your dog will be happy in a pen with sheep with you at a close distance - there is a big difference to when the sheep are in a field and further away from you. However this method could actually fuel your dog to be more interested in sheep so I would break down to smaller steps.

I would start first with the prey drive on other animals so rabbits and squirrels. If you get a decent recall from them in the great outdoors you will stand more of a chance (and less damage) when you try with the sheep.

Recall will need to be fool proof and you will need to call your dog off anything moving eg a ball a flirt pole,a a rabbit etc. Then you would be ready to work on the sheep

Often recall is hard to teach so you could teach a sit. Most dogs owners should really ask for a sit when a dog sees any fast movement eg a rabbit running offf. Over time the movement will cue the dog to sit not chase. Most gundog trainers will promote this and why labs can be out in the field with birds dropping from the sky without them chasing.

So I would work out a plan and build up to the sheep, can you dog sit and watch playing dogs, can you recall away from playing dogs, can your stop and watch squirrels, rabbits and bird and have no chase etc. Then at this point I would start to add in a sheep

Thank you this is great advice and exactly the sort of thing I was looking for!

Good suggestions, thanks.
Yes ds has had a stern talking to.
The beach is normally our go to place to let her have a run but he messed up last night.

I was so hoping this was a troll and the thread would be gone by now.

I haven't read all the previous posts.. A previous dog I had chased sheep once (hole in fence) I was young and stupid, like you I was mortified and it never happened again. I'm so super aware of livestock now with subsequent dogs. We have chickens and ducks at home and neither of our dogs chase them... however, even though I know 100% they will not bother ours at home I still don't trust them around chickens when out and about. I'll never know if they are desensitised to all chickens out just our chickens.

Sorry posted too soon! Just to say that even if your dog is okay with sheep in a particular environment I still wouldn't trust them off lead with someone's livestock.
However, where we live the stock fencing is pants and we have encountered loose sheep on the footpaths so any training that would help in this event would be good.

Don’t worry. Any farmer seeing your Doberman loose around their sheep will quickly ensure that your dog is bomb proof. Permanently bombproof.

The problem with saying 'keep the dog on a lead' is twofold.

1. Leads can fail or be yanked out of your hand.
2. Unless you want to have your dog on a lead literally all the time except in a city park, you can never quite know where you will encounter sheep. They are escape artists. Trees blow down and damage fences. And so on.

OP, ask the farmer about stock training or speak to a gundog trainer.

If your dog goes near a sheep, even if it’s not threatening it in any way it can be shot. A friends Lab was shot by a farmer for just being in a field with sheep, it was just standing about 100 yards away looking at them.
I am 99% certain Ddog would not chase a sheep and even if he did he would be very unlikely to catch one but we will never know because he will never get the opportunity.
Your DS screwed up and fortunately your dog and the sheep survived and I appreciate that accidents happen. Your attitude and what you plan to do next is bloody ridiculous though

I am not sure why you are getting such a hard time here. I live in exactly the same set up as you cottage on a working farm and understand completely what you are saying. As I understand it you plan:

1. Walk your dog on lead near livestock all the time.

1. Work hard on your dogs recall to you EVEN when exciting things like sheep and rabbits are around in case some idiot leaves the back gate open, or you find sheep somewhere unexpected etc. If you are in the set up we are in a delivery at the farm could result in the gate being left open so my dog can get out. Or a teenager can cycle home and not bother to close something etc. It's not ok but it happens just as dogs eat chocolate though they shouldn't. I want my farmer neighbour to be able to call my stupid dog back if they have to (fortunately they have six collies and get on well with mine, I don't think they will reach for their gun if she did get out but sheep are important too and should not be scared).

2 is the back up plan for one not the alternative. For anyone with a high drive dog 1 is actually very very hard if the dog is excited by sheep and pulling. Ideally you want the dog, even on lead, to focus on the handler first.

The tips above sound sensible. In our case we used loads of whistle training for sit at a distance, down stay etc in a field next to sheep where she could see them but not get to them, plus training tricks which she loves on a longline in the sheep field. She now knows when sheep are around to turn straight to me. She's on a lead and in lambing season I am ultra careful about this in open country too. But if outside lambing season she came upon a sheep on a moor whilst running around I can trust her down stay or recall whilst I catch up with her and put a lead on her. She won't just chase for fun.

Obviously she is a collie, a doberman will have different drives but the goal is sound. Get face to face advice from a trainer if necessary.

I honestly wouldn't over expose to sheep. There's the old fashioned theory that if they get a fright from a mama ewe they'll not try to go near again. I don't believe that would work with my highly confident collie and definitely not with your doberman. You could just get an injured reactive dog who wants to chase sheep from fear. The alternative theory that being near sheep makes them less interesting is clearly bollocks. Sheep are interesting, they are prey. You can't desensitize that out of a hunting animal. You can make sure you are more interesting. It will take a LOT of time.

I think it’s very hard to train prey drive out of dogs and I am not sure any dog has 100% reliable recall.

I think you’ll just have to find somewhere else to walk the dog rather than on the immediate farm. It’s what lots of people have to do. I have a reactive dog with a strong prey drive so there’s literally one walk we can do - it’s a nice walk by the river but with enclosed fields. He can’t escape and there are never any sheep there but I can see each field fully before we enter. Anywhere else - so woods, unknown fields, beaches, he’s on the lead. That’s how it has to be.

I wouldn’t dream letting a dog off lead in the dark! But I guess your DS knows this now.

This isn’t really the time of year to be training your dog with sheep tbh, I’m surprised any farmers would allow that. My dog has been near sheep I don’t know if he’d chase as he’s on lead as I don’t particularly want him shot. When I was young our spaniel ran away with our other dog and worried sheep they were returned by police and told the farmer agreed not to shoot but we had to rehome as they’d keep doing it. I don’t know if that’s the truth tbh.

I think trying to desensitise your dog with sheep is madness. I’m all for training but this is excessive. Just keep him away from them or on lead it’s not like their aren’t many places you can take a dog without livestock that can be worried by dog behaviour it’s so ridiculous this is a a farmers livelihood not a fun training exercise for your dog.

I can’t quite believe what I’m reading. Surely it’s standard practice to keep dogs on leads around livestock, especially sheep.

Just found this regarding dogs and livestock (from Government website).

I've not read the full thread and I'm not going to join the pile-on but Google 'sheep-proof your dog' courses in your area. I volunteer for a countryside organisation which commissions them from a local dog trainer and they have a lot of success.

I have patterdale x terriers I cannot train their prey drive out of them , they aren't off their leads unless in the paid for dog park and I let them go weekly as feel shit they are always on a lead but it is what it is and I can't risk them attacking any animal ( they hate all things fast and furry )
You've got me thinking now though when you said what if you fell etc on a dog walk
I must admit I don't cross grazing land with them so wouldn't have a clue what they thought of sheep but they don't like my horses so I'm guessing the same

It’s clearly not and the unnecessary troll hunting when someone is looking for genuine practical advice is both cuntish and against the rules.

no wonder this topic has a reputation for puritanical pearl clutching

@Baabaabaddog
the problem is you’re working against genetics.

a Doberman is unlikely to ever be reliable around sheep in the way a collie is.
dobermans have generations of breeding to chase and attack/take down, as a guarding breed.

collies have had the ‘attack’ part of the predatory sequence bred out over generations.

you can’t train against highly selected genetic traits in a reliable way.

you’ll need to manage her on leads/long lines, especially now she’s had a fun chase experience which will have reinforced her natural chase instincts.

Keep your dog on the lead. So irresponsible.

@FurAndFeathers I am a countrywoman with dogs, relatives with sheep and an opinion. Disagree with me all you want. But don't call me a cunt.