Merles

[ChangedmynameagainforChristmas]

Please to those people who pay mega bucks for their new merle puppy whether it be a bulldog or a dachshund or any of the popular breeds - be aware that your dog is a mongrel and not a pedigree. This is because at some point in the history there will have been crossbreeding of some sort and a merle is not always a healthy dog. Merles cannot and should not be bred with another merles as this can lead to health problems

Merles aren’t a sign of crossbreeding

they’re a recessive genetic variant linked with reduced melatonin production and neural tube developmental defects that can affect sensory/nervous system development

As PP said, merles aren't crossbreeds - the markings come from recessive merle gene carriers being bred together.

They used to be undesirable due to the health issues that come with them, but now the coat colour is seen as unique and pretty.

Merles are most certainly a cross breed if found in spaniels. The main stud dog responsible for introducing merle into spaniels is owners by a convicted puppy farmer who falsifies KC paperwork. Gullible members of the public want a spaniel with "different" colouring and think they have a designer dog. Instead they are feeding the puppy farming industry and maintaining poor breeding practices with major health and behaviour consequences.

This!

Merle is only a sign of cross breeding in breeds it doesn’t naturally occur in - but it does occur in dachshunds, so that’s kind of a bad example tbh.

Exactly.

plus introducing colour variation doesn’t necessarily create a ‘crossbreed’
it depends on the number of generations etc

for example, Dalmatian health was improved in the 60s by outcrossing them with a pointer to prevent a genetic disease that causes bladder stones. It doesn’t mean that Dalmatian’s are not Dalmatian’s because of this 🤷‍♀️

not really sure what the OP’s point is. Yes there are health problems with merle colouration but I’m not sure sneering at ‘crossbreeds’ is the way to make that point

I'm not sneering at anyone. I am merely pointing out a fact. People who spend thousands on a dog surely expect that dog to be perfect and a Merle is not perfect. You should not breed from a Merle. A Merle is a variation and there is no room for that in a thoroughbred costing lots of hard earned money

Well if folk purchasing bulldogs and dachshunds of any description expect their dogs to be ‘perfect’, they’re in for a shock.

Both breeds are highly inbred with deleterious genetic mutations and extreme conformation conferring significant health and welfare problems. and that’s the ‘perfect, purebred’ ones.

that’s not my idea of ‘perfect’
Caveat emptor

@FurAndFeathers · Today 09:30
ChangedmynameagainforChristmas · Today 09:20
I'm not sneering at anyone. I am merely pointing out a fact. People who spend thousands on a dog surely expect that dog to be perfect and a Merle is not perfect. You should not breed from a Merle. A Merle is a variation and there is no room for that in a thoroughbred costing lots of hard earned money
Well if folk purchasing bulldogs and dachshunds of any description expect their dogs to be ‘perfect’, they’re in for a shock.
Both breeds are highly inbred with deleterious genetic mutations and extreme conformation conferring significant health and welfare problems. and that’s the ‘perfect, purebred’ ones.
that’s not my idea of ‘perfect’
Caveat emptor

Nor mine either, but then the world is full of imperfection isn't it.
Have a good day

There are many breeds where coat colour or a desirable physical trait is linked with a faulty gene.

i wouldn’t buy a merle because of this.

I also wouldn’t buy a manx cat or anything else where the “desirable” gene is also lethal.

other people do though, same as people buy pugs and other brachycephalics. They do it either because they haven’t checked into health issues of the breed they want, or they have and don’t care.

many people buy from puppy farmers too, again either because they don’t care or turn a bling eye to the red flags because they want a puppy.

But people can make an informed choice and a better choice if they are given the info upfront which is what I have attempted to do here. I have two rescued pugs so they already existed before I made my choice and had them checked out by a vet. I would not and will not breed from them but I would not swap them for the world !

Nor mine either, but then the world is full of imperfection isn't it.

then why suggest that non merle purebred disease-riddled dogs are perfect?

@FurAndFeathers
Ah.. you just want the last word don't you ! I suggested nothing of the sort but have it your way you sausage !

People who spend thousands on a dog surely expect that dog to be perfect and a Merle is not perfect.

this implies that non-merles are perfect. Or have I misunderstood? What’s the third option?

You specifically mention bulldogs and dachshunds as examples, yet the evidence is clear that these are unhealthy breeds regardless of coat colour (and merle is a natural variation in dachshunds and not a sign of outcrossing, so I’m not really sure how a dachshund with a Merle coat shows any sign of being crossbred?),
Why the focus on Merle as being the root of health concerns in these breeds when extreme conformation has a much bigger impact?

But the information in your first post isn't entirely accurate.

Merle occurs naturally in several breeds so to say it's always the result of crossbreeding isn't correct.

It is correct that the Merle gene comes with health problems which is why it was previously seen as undesirable but that's a whole different problem.

People will buy a pet dog based on looks, sometimes on their traits (family friendly, working,...) and as an afterthought they will be looking at welfare and health.

Have you got a source? Merle is complex, but the most common/visual type of merle gene is listed as dominant on every source I can find, so if a dog has it, it is visible. Other than cryptic merle, but this doesn't produce the merle people mean when they are talking about merle 'coloured' dogs.

There is definitely an issue with people trying to pass off merles as pure bred dogs in breeds where the merle gene doesn't exist in purebred dogs of that breed. The kennel club only registers merle dogs of the following breeds for that reason.

Australian Shepherd,
Beauceron,
Bergamasco,
Border Collie,
Dachshund (colour known as dapple),
Great Dane,
Pyrenean Sheepdog (Long Haired),
Collie (Rough),
Collie (Smooth),
Shetland Sheepdog, and
Corgi (Cardigan Welsh).

@CrazyDogLady2022 · Today 10:17
There is definitely an issue with people trying to pass off merles as pure bred dogs in breeds where the merle gene doesn't exist in purebred dogs of that breed. The kennel club only registers merle dogs of the following breeds for that reason.
Australian Shepherd,
Beauceron,
Bergamasco,
Border Collie,
Dachshund (colour known as dapple),
Great Dane,
Pyrenean Sheepdog (Long Haired),
Collie (Rough),
Collie (Smooth),
Shetland Sheepdog, and
Corgi (Cardigan Welsh).

This is what I was trying to say

I've had merles as rescue dogs. I live rurally and the old shepherds got rid of them because they said they spooked the sheep. I took on a couple over the years and they were lovely dogs, though more flakey than regular BCs. I've also had a dapple dachs (again, rescue).
It breaks my heart see it exploited as a designer gene. It cannot be a good trend and I despise people who want dogs with novelty value or exclusiveness.
Merle X merle puppies are born blind, or fade away or are generally health-impaired. It can't be a good idea to spread this recessive gene into other breeds.

"be aware that your dog is a mongrel and not a pedigree."
Charming!

I like mongrels. Being a mongrel is not a negative thing.
I was already aware that Merles have problems.

Apologies you’re quite right that should read

‘a dominant genetic variant linked with reduced melatonin production and neural tube developmental defects that can affect sensory/nervous system development’

Well it would have been clearer if you hadn’t chosen a breed with naturally occurring Merle as your example of a ‘crossbreed’

and my earlier point about outcrossing still stands.
its complicated as ‘breeds’ are an entirely artificial construct based primarily on phenotype anyway. Dogs are dogs, and inciting snobbery against mixed breeds isn’t especially helpful in promoting dog health.

Anyone who buys from breeders us getting conned. I haven't met one yet who hasn't bred from a dog that's not the one on the papers. Dog breeding is a business pure and simple and ime most breeder are crooks - particularly KC ones.

I have a Merle border collie, pure bred working sheepdog (international sheepdog registry rather than kc) but I didn't know as a puppy because it developed later, common in collies. We had no plans to breed anyway