Should we be provided the KC names of a puppy's parents before taking the puppy home?

[Redheadedwoman]

This really. We've been in contact with a breeder and we're planning to go and visit and view the puppy next week. We've been told that the puppy will be KC registered and that both the parent's are registered and have been fully health checked. They're not close to us so I can't go and look at the paperwork easily so I've asked for the KC names of the parents before we go so that I can check this against the KC health records but the breeder will not provide the KC names of the parents to me beforehand. This is ringing alarm bells as I feel they're trying to hide something but wanted to check if that is indeed normal practice.

i would steer well clear of these - they have several chocolate coloured dogs in their pictures with brown noses - chocolate and liver are not permissible colours in TTS.

Their website is awful, none of the links work and they have puppies of 2 different ages available (3 weeks apart). there is no information about their kennel name or any of the dogs they’re using to breed from. Screaming puppy farm to me - and a PP is right, Tibetan terriers can be a handful, you don’t want a badly bred one.

I would look again more carefully for a really good breeder. my family has had 5 Tibetans over the years - most Tibetan breeders worth their salt adore the breed and are very proud of the bloodlines they’ve built up and they’d be happy to tell you about their dogs

Just stepped away to start dinner and have come back to loads replies! Thanks everyone who has spent time looking into this some more - I'll go through and have a proper read and reply later.

Feeling a bit bad that the breeder has been named on here as I don't have any actual proof that there's anything dodgy going on, but guess others can read all the replies if they come across this thread and make their own mind up. Sure the advice here will be helpful to someone else too.

To add to the concerns, some of the photos in the pets at home advert clearly aren't from this litter, as they show puppies outside with spring flowers. They apparently have two different sofas, and multiple different camera qualities, which raises the question of do these photos relate to these puppies in any way. It might be legitimate....

There is another breeder with puppies listed who i would also steer clear from - however the parents of the puppy in question and all the registered names are listed on the KC page so at least you’ll have that info

Yes, I carefully didn’t name breeder (or indeed link them in case they raise issues with Mumsnet if they track increased traffic).

Red flag! Yes they should give both names so you can look them up on the kennel club website

@beachhutenvy and @holierthanthou73 wonder if it might be an idea to take down the links for the reasons @Whitney168 says above.

Just to give an insight into how people can fraudulently use known names of dogs, a dog was stated as having sired 2 litters, thankfully it was when the KC still contacted the owner of the sire prior to registering litters. This person never realised the KC check. DNA checks were done on the pups and not surprisingly proved it was not the dog states. The puppy owners were now in the situation of having pups with falsified pedigrees.

For any breed I would not entertain any ads on any of the online sites such as Pets4home etc.

Do your homework, find a breeder you are happy with, build a rapport with them, get added to a waiting list and be prepared to WAIT for a puppy, whenever the breeder next plans a litter. That wait could be quite a while but it will be worth it.

Reputable breeders will have gone through this paperwork willingly before the puppy was even born. Ask them to email the pedigree certificates

We got our puppy off pets4home. We messaged the breeder a lot before we went to look at the puppy. He's kc
registered on his dad's side and she provided the info so we could check. When we finally took him home she gave us a laminated family tree to keep. She also asked as many questions of us as we did of her.
Pups been with us 12 weeks now and we still keep in touch with the breeder and the other puppy owners.

If it's ringing alarm bells there's probably a reason.

Apologies OP. Have asked for link to be taken down.

Can I just say well done for asking the question then listening to the replies. I bought a farmed puppy pre-internet and it was a terrible regret of mine. I wish I knew then what I knew now.

I've recently bought a pedigree dog. The sire which the breeder bred is generally considered by all the breed experts to be the best example ever of the breed (not a poodle), the breeder sent me videos, articles about the sire, a pedigree going back to the year dot including pictures of the sires mum and dad uncles aunts etc, his very extensive show record, pictures of puppies he'd sired and God knows what else, he also sent me loads of details about his mum, show record, pictures of puppies she'd given birth too etc and also information about himself, his show ring successes going back to the year dot, numerous articles and interviews he's done about the breed. I was asked to read all of the before contacting him again about the dog he was selling. I didn't have any doubt that he was legit and totally fanatical about the breed. I had a 10 hour round trip to see the dog so like you OP I wanted to be sure that everything was above board.
I had the similar info when I purchased the poodle.
Both dogs are sprawled out here on the carpet both epitomise their breed standard.
If alarm bells are ringing walk away there are legit breed dedicated breeders out there go through the breed specific club not the KC thats what Ive always done and its always paid off.

Enormous red flag. There really isn't a need for secrecy about a dog's KC name; in many cases they are a matter of almost public record. If you show, it is printed in the catalogue along with the names of sire and dam, the breeder's name, your name and even often your address, unless you choose to withhold the latter part. Results and critiques are printed in the dog paper. If you compete in for e.g agility it will again appear in the results tables and often be available to search online. Some breeds and dog sports have databases of not just health test results but individual working test scores and even pictures and videos for every dog, from grassroots to world championships. The dogs should be identifiable adverts for their breeding and (where applicable) working achievements. Otherwise how do you know what you're buying?

I agree they are not a secret but I do not think breeders should readily give all the information to anyone if they do not know them. I certainly do not, I will happily provide as much info as needed, when the possible owners visit then I will show them full pedigees, health results, show and working results etc.

I am lucky in not having to ever advertise but if people contact me in order to go on a waiting list or just make enquiries, and I do not know them I am circumspect in the level of information I provide.

As I said earlier breeders and owners is a 2 way process, each checks the other out if they do not know eachother.

Unfortunately even if pedigrees were provided, other than DNA testing there is no way to prove the litter is what some "breeders" claim it to be. Many of the puppy farmers or not quite right breeders can and do use registered dogs names to look better than they are.

I still maintain anyone looking for a pedigree dog do their homework and find a breeder they are happy with well before any mating has taken place. If more people did this it would lessen the amount of puppies advertised online needed homes straight away.

Good luck to the OP for their TT search - there are good breeders out there and I am sure everything will come right for a new pup.

Total and utter bollocks from the greeder. Hope you find a good 'un soon.

To those saying they would not provide details until people were committed... How do you expect folk to verify health test results and coefficients of inbreeding? I found it very easy to verify KC names and progeny. I just googled the stud dog owner and emailed them.

It is not until people are committed - I am only circumspect with information if I do not know the people enquiring. I prefer people to get in touch long before any breeding takes place, I can then ascertain if they are suitable and the breed is suitable for them. I would provide info such as any sire/dam is fully hip/elbow and eye tested as per the KC/BVA schemes.

I expect the possible owners to visit to meet the breed and ask any questions, it also works the other way and I can ask them questions.

If I know I am planning to breed and I am happy with the people interested I will then provide further information and copies of all the relevant information. I have no problem with them confirming everything with the KC online.

Purchasing is a 2 way process, the possible owner have to be happy with all aspects of the planned mating, in turn I have to be happy with the possible owners.

It is very sensible for possible to check all the information, on the other side though breeders have to be careful as to how much detailed information is given out. As I posted earlier unfortunatley there are people who are not quite as they seem, before you know it pups of the same breed are advertised with the names of dogs, particularly the sire, on the online selling websites.

Thankfully I breed very rarely, only when I will keep a pup for myself, I normally have people already on a waiting list and do not ever need to advertise, so the situation of having to provide information to complete strangers does not happen.

I believe you can provide enough information to satisfy a "cold" enquiry in order to open the dialogue. If for some prospective owners that is not enough, that is fine - each party has to be happy with the entire process.

The details of dogs are available in show and working catalogues - some of the enquiries can be started by a person calling saying "I was at XX event and I really liked your dog NN, do you plan to have any puppies from him/her in the future?" My response could be, no sorry his/her hip score is a little higher than I would like so I will not be breeding for them, I do however have a younger dog who if he passes all his health tests I may allow him to sire a litter, if that is of interest to you why don't you come a visit to meet the dogs". I would not expect to provide any further pedigree information on the dog until I have met the possible owners. Demanding to see his pedigree at that point (unless someone was known to me) would make me wary.

I got my pedigree puppy from preloved, so I don't automatically think the website should exclude them, but the parents were clearly both very much loved family pets and I was sent lots of photos of the puppies and parents before travelling to see them. I didn't ask for family tree information ahead of time but this was provided when I was there.

Barleysugar - that sounds how it should work, I am pleased to hear some of the online sites do have good people on there and most importantly you were given all the information once you visited. I will admit to being harsh about online sites, I probably should not be.

We bought our Weimaraner from a well known breeder. They were proud to give out the names!

I am also proud to give out all the details but at an appropriate time and not to anyone who calls or emails me without me knowing anything about them.

First thing I did when looking for pups was verify health tests, previous litters, COI on the KC site. Plenty that I discounted due to incomplete health tests or high COI before I even got as far as talking to the breeder.

I got my list of breeders from the Kennel Club

This is bonkers. Champ dogs website offer all of this info when breeders sell puppies.

OP I have been offered all of this via when talking to my breeders. Was even sent KC certificate photos. Plus links to the parents on KC website.

I think there's a risk to giving out KC registered names to anyone who asks. Also putting them in the puppy advert. Other disreputable breeders could easily use the names themselves to promote their litters especially if champions in background etc

There is no risk in giving out KC names. They are almost a public record.

When puppies are registered, the KC uses the sud book number which will not be displayed with the KC name. Obviously this should not be given out.